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hold what

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explain your sneeze i'm sorry do you

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have

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allergies no is there too much pepper on

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your salad i don't put pepper on salads

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i've heard enough sit over there

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come on i don't want to sit by myself

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that's what typhoid mary said and

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clearly her friends buckled

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i have a really interesting interview

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coming up with dr dan wilson

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interesting to me because going into

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this

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i thought it was going to be a hardcore

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discussion about covid19

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mask science and what it really turned

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into maybe is just the discussion of

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how far the science cow has left the

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barn

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i would say that when it comes to mask

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use you know there

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are general principles that we can pull

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from the literature and we know from a

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laboratory setting that face masks

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reduce the number of infectious viral

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particles that escape

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from the nose and mouth into the

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environment that is perfectly illogical

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i have to interject i know you're making

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sure there's a remark but i kind of

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nailed that i mean who cares

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that doesn't just we get and and the

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fact that it gets repeated

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over and over again like you just did

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with some kind of

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mantra mesmerizing thing it's science

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[\h__\h]

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it doesn't have anything to do with

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answering the question

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am i safer wearing a mask it doesn't

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answer that because it doesn't relate to

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how it works with other humans it's just

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it's science [\h__\h]

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well i would disagree i think it's a

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really important part of the puzzle

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you know like we said at the beginning

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it's important to see

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whether or not something works in a lab

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setting and that's usually the first

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thing that

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scientists do before going and testing

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it further but no one had any doubt

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whether it would work it's home ice no

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one had any doubt that

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if i put if i do that it it does the

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same thing if i cover my mouth when i

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cough

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stuff doesn't come out to elevate it to

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this level of

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advanced refined science to say that if

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you cover somebody's mouth

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the stuff doesn't come out of it when

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they sneeze is a total

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head fake [\h__\h] way of kind of

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wrapping all this nonsense in science

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the conclusion is

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last year's

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super bowl when the chiefs won no one

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had to wear a mask

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because no one was told to wear a mask

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because that's what the best science

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said

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and there hasn't been a wave of science

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that would change

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that welcome to skeptico where we

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explore controversial science and

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spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics

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boy oh boy i have a good one today i've

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really been looking forward to this

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dr dan wilson debunk the funk

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with dr wilson is his youtube channel

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he is joining us today to have a covid

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19 science throw down

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knock down drag out dan

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is a phd in molecular biology from

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carnegie mellon

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translate as he's really really smart

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i don't know about that but oh you you

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will find that he is really

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smart which means i took a particular

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path and

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spent a lot of time doing it so no

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you know i mean let's let's be you know

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for real because

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it is important we're gonna have a

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scientific discussion one of the things

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you know you kind of pride yourself on

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which is great

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is being a science

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you know you're a science professional

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but you're also a fan of science and

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advocate for science

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you're interested in debunking to the

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extent that you want to get to the

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bottom of what's real and what isn't

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real and

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hey that's where i'm at too and even

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though we might come to different

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conclusions

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we we share that which i think is

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so i'm showing here your uh your youtube

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channel

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and as folks can see you've done a lot

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of videos

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on covid19 uh

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a lot of people on there we're going to

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talk about in a minute but

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why don't we start by just you know kind

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of the basics tell us a little bit more

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about your background about share as

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much as you want about what you do but

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in particular

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why you created this youtube channel and

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why you felt the need to

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publish so many videos on covet 19.

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yeah so um as you said i earned my phd

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from carnegie mellon university

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um i earned it just last year actually

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and uh you know

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skeptical topics such as pseudoscience

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paranormal

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uh conspiracy theories all that kind of

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things i've been

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interested in it uh from a very young

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age

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and so uh

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it's always been something i would read

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about um you know

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watch youtube videos about uh and i kind

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of had

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uh my own little research forays into

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and so when i was getting to towards the

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end of my phd i thought you know what do

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i really want to do with my degree

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do i really want to sit at a lab bench

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and

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try to feel like i'm being try to really

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feel like i'm contributing to society

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by doing these really niche uh special

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projects that it's hard to see the

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grander

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want to interject a little bit on your

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dissertation which i did not understand

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at all but we'll give people a sense for

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how much we don't know about what you

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know and do kind of on it

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sure yeah so for my uh phd work i

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investigated how uh cells build the

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a little nano machine in the uh called

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ribosomes

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so if you remember from biology class um

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proteins get made by ribosomes but

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ribosomes themselves are made up of

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protein and rna and they're actually

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really complicated

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structures and the cell has to build

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them so

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uh it has mechanisms to do that which

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are

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very you could

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spend obviously a whole dissertation on

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it and only

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really focus on one protein out of

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hundreds

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involved in the process of making

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ribosomes and so that's what i did i

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focused on

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how the role that two particular

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proteins have in

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actually building the ribosome

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and so you know it's it's basic biology

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it's stuff that contributes to our

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general

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understanding of how the molecular world

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works and

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the hope is that one day that basic

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knowledge can help contribute to

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a medication or some kind of

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understanding for

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a treatment for a disease but

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you know when i'm working out to further

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the point i

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started talking about just a little bit

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ago

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it's hard to see you know 10 20 years

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10 20 or so even more years down the

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line and say

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the work i'm doing now is definitely

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going to have an impact later it's

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it's definitely important but it takes a

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certain personality to really

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um be okay be okay with just that kind

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of work you know

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uh some not everyone is fulfilled by um

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that kind of hope of distant

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gratification

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even though you know your work is

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important it it can still be

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um hard to get all the fulfillment you

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want out of that if that makes sense

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sure so and that's what kind of led you

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to do more of kind of a

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publicly relatable kind of youtube

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channel

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yeah so i always was interested in

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science communication is something i

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explored

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during my phd and

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that's where i really got fulfillment is

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by communicating science to people

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whether it's

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teaching in a classroom or

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you know understanding how people

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misunderstand science and

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trying to help them understand it um

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that was where i got a lot of enjoyment

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and so i just decided towards the end of

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my phd why don't i just

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try putting myself out there why don't i

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just do this thing i've always really

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wanted to do

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and just just start a youtube channel

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just for fun

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um and see where it goes and so that's

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really what motivated

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um me to start my youtube channel there

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were other circumstances in my life that

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made me decide okay now is the time i

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want to

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actually try to do this thing i've

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always thought about

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but that was the general reasoning

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behind it

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um and so it started out

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just with anti-vaxxers because that's

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kind of where my expertise fit um you

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know

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in molecular biology uh understanding

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vaccines and immunology that's kind of

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in the same umbrella as molecular

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biology

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so that's where i focused it's already

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is what i already knew a lot about in

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terms of like what

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the claims that people make and the

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relevant information

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um regarding those claims so i started

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there and then

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the pandemic happened and so

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i i kind of started to focus more and

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more on

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covet things week by week um until

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i was just flooded with you know all of

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these different

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things that people were saying and you

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know

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the code pandemic has affected all of

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our lives in one way or another

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um whether the disease has

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affected us or someone we know or um

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any of the precautions that we now take

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have changed our lives in many ways our

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jobs

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et cetera so it's important to really

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understand

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what the science is about covet and you

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know seeing

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all of these things that i was seeing

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over the past few months really

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made me think that i should focus on

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covert related topics on my channel so

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that's what i've been doing

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right on to that this is perfect just go

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right up my alley so

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let me uh let me grab control this a

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little bit but you take it back whenever

289
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you want i

290
00:10:47,670 --> 00:10:47,040
got one of my favorite high school

291
00:10:49,509 --> 00:10:47,680
students

292
00:10:51,430 --> 00:10:49,519
it's very close to me to put together

293
00:10:52,870 --> 00:10:51,440
some slides for me so we're going to use

294
00:10:56,230 --> 00:10:52,880
those slides

295
00:10:57,670 --> 00:10:56,240
and what we decided to do inside of a

296
00:11:00,230 --> 00:10:57,680
science discussion that we're going to

297
00:11:02,069 --> 00:11:00,240
have very science-based because i think

298
00:11:04,870 --> 00:11:02,079
i like you of a passion for science you

299
00:11:07,190 --> 00:11:04,880
know a little bit of background on me

300
00:11:08,230 --> 00:11:07,200
i was a phd student in artificial

301
00:11:09,829 --> 00:11:08,240
intelligence

302
00:11:11,350 --> 00:11:09,839
at the university of arizona before i

303
00:11:12,389 --> 00:11:11,360
decided hey man i got to follow the

304
00:11:15,269 --> 00:11:12,399
money

305
00:11:16,710 --> 00:11:15,279
i knew aia i was taking off started

306
00:11:18,310 --> 00:11:16,720
company

307
00:11:21,110 --> 00:11:18,320
but i always had this passion for

308
00:11:22,150 --> 00:11:21,120
science and spirituality it led me to

309
00:11:24,790 --> 00:11:22,160
podcasting

310
00:11:25,590 --> 00:11:24,800
it led me to writing a book why science

311
00:11:27,670 --> 00:11:25,600
is wrong about

312
00:11:28,870 --> 00:11:27,680
almost everything kind of a cheeky title

313
00:11:31,350 --> 00:11:28,880
that gets at

314
00:11:34,069 --> 00:11:31,360
science is complete dropping the ball of

315
00:11:36,949 --> 00:11:34,079
consciousness and misunderstanding of

316
00:11:38,150 --> 00:11:36,959
really quantum physics implications for

317
00:11:39,829 --> 00:11:38,160
the observer effect

318
00:11:41,269 --> 00:11:39,839
and what that means for consciousness

319
00:11:42,550 --> 00:11:41,279
and what that means for scientific

320
00:11:45,750 --> 00:11:42,560
materialism

321
00:11:49,430 --> 00:11:45,760
and in the process of interviewing

322
00:11:50,150 --> 00:11:49,440
some pretty misinformed and ill-informed

323
00:11:53,990 --> 00:11:50,160
scientists

324
00:11:56,470 --> 00:11:54,000
i became somewhat of a science

325
00:11:57,829 --> 00:11:56,480
advocate watchdog kind of in the same

326
00:11:59,269 --> 00:11:57,839
way that you are only kind of from a

327
00:12:03,110 --> 00:11:59,279
different perspective

328
00:12:05,269 --> 00:12:03,120
so this is an opportunity today

329
00:12:07,990 --> 00:12:05,279
we decided to kind of focus in on one

330
00:12:11,590 --> 00:12:08,000
thing and this topic of whether or not

331
00:12:13,509 --> 00:12:11,600
do masks work and i have to say

332
00:12:15,829 --> 00:12:13,519
i have to give credit here because i was

333
00:12:18,949 --> 00:12:15,839
really prompted to do this

334
00:12:21,829 --> 00:12:18,959
by my friend rick archer from

335
00:12:23,990 --> 00:12:21,839
buddha at the gas pump there's rick's

336
00:12:26,949 --> 00:12:24,000
picture from when he was on my show

337
00:12:28,470 --> 00:12:26,959
and rick is just a fantastic

338
00:12:30,150 --> 00:12:28,480
communicator and

339
00:12:32,550 --> 00:12:30,160
contributor and you know his buddha at

340
00:12:37,030 --> 00:12:32,560
the gas pump show is phenomenally

341
00:12:39,110 --> 00:12:37,040
important but at the same time rick is

342
00:12:41,190 --> 00:12:39,120
kind of one of these just doesn't

343
00:12:43,990 --> 00:12:41,200
understand science and just kind of

344
00:12:47,269 --> 00:12:44,000
falls for every

345
00:12:49,350 --> 00:12:47,279
new world order science

346
00:12:51,190 --> 00:12:49,360
trap that he can lay his hands on at

347
00:12:52,790 --> 00:12:51,200
least that's my take of it

348
00:12:54,310 --> 00:12:52,800
but here's where i wanted to start

349
00:12:57,670 --> 00:12:54,320
because to me this

350
00:13:00,710 --> 00:12:57,680
is like one of the most important issues

351
00:13:01,110 --> 00:13:00,720
we could possibly talk about related to

352
00:13:05,509 --> 00:13:01,120
this

353
00:13:07,350 --> 00:13:05,519
free speech

354
00:13:09,430 --> 00:13:07,360
you know you were nice enough to fill

355
00:13:12,870 --> 00:13:09,440
out this hokey little uh

356
00:13:14,710 --> 00:13:12,880
questionnaire that i do about uh

357
00:13:15,910 --> 00:13:14,720
you did it you're very nice about doing

358
00:13:17,829 --> 00:13:15,920
that you seem like a very

359
00:13:19,350 --> 00:13:17,839
open guy and i really appreciate that

360
00:13:22,150 --> 00:13:19,360
and you know one of the things one of

361
00:13:24,790 --> 00:13:22,160
the questions on there is

362
00:13:25,990 --> 00:13:24,800
conspiracy theory and are conspiracies

363
00:13:27,670 --> 00:13:26,000
dangerous

364
00:13:29,670 --> 00:13:27,680
and you like most people said yeah i

365
00:13:30,870 --> 00:13:29,680
think sometimes conspiracies are

366
00:13:31,990 --> 00:13:30,880
dangerous

367
00:13:34,629 --> 00:13:32,000
and i was wondering you know i looked

368
00:13:38,949 --> 00:13:34,639
through some of the people that you've

369
00:13:41,430 --> 00:13:38,959
um very rightfully and fairly

370
00:13:43,350 --> 00:13:41,440
challenged in your youtube channel

371
00:13:47,189 --> 00:13:43,360
whether it be james corbett

372
00:13:50,150 --> 00:13:47,199
or dell big tree he's on there

373
00:13:51,269 --> 00:13:50,160
um who else i don't know if you have

374
00:13:54,629 --> 00:13:51,279
robert kennedy

375
00:13:56,389 --> 00:13:54,639
jr on there but i guess mike he's yeah

376
00:13:57,829 --> 00:13:56,399
sorry go ahead i'll say he's probably

377
00:14:00,550 --> 00:13:57,839
coming up right

378
00:14:01,189 --> 00:14:00,560
yeah he's on my list he's on your list

379
00:14:07,110 --> 00:14:01,199
so

380
00:14:09,670 --> 00:14:07,120
be on the other side of your issue

381
00:14:11,030 --> 00:14:09,680
is anything i'm going to say dangerous

382
00:14:13,670 --> 00:14:11,040
should any of these people be

383
00:14:14,230 --> 00:14:13,680
banned i mean dell big trees banned he's

384
00:14:21,030 --> 00:14:14,240
banned

385
00:14:24,310 --> 00:14:21,040
science

386
00:14:27,030 --> 00:14:24,320
oh i mean that's a little bit of a

387
00:14:28,710 --> 00:14:27,040
policy question you know that i don't

388
00:14:31,750 --> 00:14:28,720
think i have a

389
00:14:33,590 --> 00:14:31,760
final answer too um

390
00:14:35,030 --> 00:14:33,600
it's whether or not someone should be

391
00:14:40,069 --> 00:14:35,040
banned for

392
00:14:41,350 --> 00:14:40,079
speaking about um misinformation

393
00:14:43,430 --> 00:14:41,360
you know that's something that i would

394
00:14:44,629 --> 00:14:43,440
consider myself to have uneducated

395
00:14:48,230 --> 00:14:44,639
opinions on i don't

396
00:14:51,910 --> 00:14:48,240
think about that day in and day out

397
00:14:55,990 --> 00:14:54,550
there does come a point where spreading

398
00:14:58,389 --> 00:14:56,000
misinformation becomes

399
00:14:59,269 --> 00:14:58,399
harmful and you have to weigh whether or

400
00:15:02,389 --> 00:14:59,279
not

401
00:15:04,150 --> 00:15:02,399
it's worth it to let people who have

402
00:15:05,269 --> 00:15:04,160
these audiences of hundreds of thousands

403
00:15:08,150 --> 00:15:05,279
of people

404
00:15:10,470 --> 00:15:08,160
say things that their audience is going

405
00:15:13,030 --> 00:15:10,480
to believe but will ultimately

406
00:15:14,069 --> 00:15:13,040
you know end up harming either

407
00:15:17,189 --> 00:15:14,079
themselves or

408
00:15:18,629 --> 00:15:17,199
people around them um so it's an

409
00:15:20,150 --> 00:15:18,639
important question

410
00:15:21,910 --> 00:15:20,160
well it's important because it's in our

411
00:15:23,430 --> 00:15:21,920
constitution it's the first amendment

412
00:15:26,310 --> 00:15:23,440
it's freedom of speech i mean

413
00:15:28,230 --> 00:15:26,320
who would decide who would you have

414
00:15:31,269 --> 00:15:28,240
deciding dan

415
00:15:33,430 --> 00:15:31,279
whose talk whose science

416
00:15:36,069 --> 00:15:33,440
should be banned and what science should

417
00:15:37,990 --> 00:15:36,079
not be banned who would decide that

418
00:15:40,389 --> 00:15:38,000
oh well according to the first amendment

419
00:15:43,110 --> 00:15:40,399
not the government

420
00:15:44,389 --> 00:15:43,120
so you know what you just said you just

421
00:15:47,350 --> 00:15:44,399
thought you thought it was okay

422
00:15:48,470 --> 00:15:47,360
if somebody got you know 200 000 300 000

423
00:15:49,870 --> 00:15:48,480
million followers

424
00:15:51,509 --> 00:15:49,880
and they're spreading quote-unquote

425
00:15:54,150 --> 00:15:51,519
misinformation

426
00:15:55,670 --> 00:15:54,160
which like you're spreading i would

427
00:15:57,509 --> 00:15:55,680
maintain at the end of the day that

428
00:15:59,269 --> 00:15:57,519
you're spreading this information

429
00:16:01,269 --> 00:15:59,279
okay rick and you would maintain that

430
00:16:02,949 --> 00:16:01,279
i'm spreading misinformation

431
00:16:05,030 --> 00:16:02,959
we're both reporting on the same science

432
00:16:07,030 --> 00:16:05,040
right you sent me papers i sent you

433
00:16:09,590 --> 00:16:07,040
papers back

434
00:16:11,590 --> 00:16:09,600
who would decide in that whether where's

435
00:16:14,150 --> 00:16:11,600
the misinformation who decide who's

436
00:16:15,749 --> 00:16:14,160
endangering endangering the lives of

437
00:16:17,509 --> 00:16:15,759
thousands of people because

438
00:16:19,110 --> 00:16:17,519
if i'm right then you're endangering the

439
00:16:19,590 --> 00:16:19,120
lives of thousands people if you're

440
00:16:21,110 --> 00:16:19,600
right then

441
00:16:24,069 --> 00:16:21,120
i'm endangering the lives of thousands

442
00:16:26,870 --> 00:16:24,079
of people so who decides

443
00:16:27,509 --> 00:16:26,880
well ultimately if you're asking me who

444
00:16:30,629 --> 00:16:27,519
decides

445
00:16:32,790 --> 00:16:30,639
who gets banned you know again that's a

446
00:16:35,670 --> 00:16:32,800
policy question

447
00:16:37,509 --> 00:16:35,680
but if we're talking about who's right

448
00:16:39,350 --> 00:16:37,519
that's a science question

449
00:16:40,470 --> 00:16:39,360
and i think that's a lot more

450
00:16:42,389 --> 00:16:40,480
straightforward at least for me to

451
00:16:44,230 --> 00:16:42,399
answer

452
00:16:45,590 --> 00:16:44,240
and i don't i don't necessarily believe

453
00:16:47,189 --> 00:16:45,600
that any everybody

454
00:16:49,110 --> 00:16:47,199
should get banned for spreading this

455
00:16:51,030 --> 00:16:49,120
information um

456
00:16:52,550 --> 00:16:51,040
uh i just said that you do have to at

457
00:16:55,430 --> 00:16:52,560
some point weigh

458
00:16:57,749 --> 00:16:55,440
the fact that you know misinformation

459
00:16:59,829 --> 00:16:57,759
can be harmful

460
00:17:02,710 --> 00:16:59,839
in making right and i'm just saying i'm

461
00:17:04,470 --> 00:17:02,720
not gonna belabor this point

462
00:17:06,789 --> 00:17:04,480
but i'm saying that's why the first

463
00:17:09,829 --> 00:17:06,799
amendment is the first amendment

464
00:17:11,350 --> 00:17:09,839
is you you you just don't want to

465
00:17:12,870 --> 00:17:11,360
introduce that and particularly from

466
00:17:14,630 --> 00:17:12,880
science i find it troubling that you

467
00:17:16,390 --> 00:17:14,640
would even go down that path

468
00:17:18,870 --> 00:17:16,400
i mean this is the extraordinary claims

469
00:17:21,590 --> 00:17:18,880
require extraordinary proof nonsense

470
00:17:23,350 --> 00:17:21,600
there's no such thing in science as

471
00:17:26,069 --> 00:17:23,360
extraordinary claims

472
00:17:27,909 --> 00:17:26,079
or extraordinary proof science is about

473
00:17:30,710 --> 00:17:27,919
removing our biases

474
00:17:32,789 --> 00:17:30,720
so that so that we know we are

475
00:17:34,789 --> 00:17:32,799
prejudiced we know we have

476
00:17:36,630 --> 00:17:34,799
bias one way or another we'll remove

477
00:17:39,110 --> 00:17:36,640
those so that no

478
00:17:40,150 --> 00:17:39,120
meta knowledge of what's extraordinary

479
00:17:42,390 --> 00:17:40,160
comes into play

480
00:17:44,150 --> 00:17:42,400
and the same thing here i i mean i i

481
00:17:47,190 --> 00:17:44,160
expected rick to say

482
00:17:49,110 --> 00:17:47,200
yeah bannon bantam bantam but you've

483
00:17:50,070 --> 00:17:49,120
been through the bhd program i didn't

484
00:17:52,310 --> 00:17:50,080
expect you

485
00:17:54,070 --> 00:17:52,320
to to jump on board that anyone who's

486
00:17:56,390 --> 00:17:54,080
having a scientific discussion

487
00:17:58,150 --> 00:17:56,400
they should somehow that their

488
00:17:59,909 --> 00:17:58,160
information should be deemed as quote

489
00:18:00,950 --> 00:17:59,919
unquote misinformation and it should be

490
00:18:03,990 --> 00:18:00,960
removed from

491
00:18:05,270 --> 00:18:04,000
the the public sphere which is what it

492
00:18:06,150 --> 00:18:05,280
is because when it's removed from

493
00:18:08,549 --> 00:18:06,160
youtube

494
00:18:09,270 --> 00:18:08,559
and facebook and twitter all at the same

495
00:18:12,310 --> 00:18:09,280
time

496
00:18:13,990 --> 00:18:12,320
i mean that's like you know in the olden

497
00:18:16,310 --> 00:18:14,000
days removing it from all the newspapers

498
00:18:17,669 --> 00:18:16,320
and all the tv channels

499
00:18:19,350 --> 00:18:17,679
well i want to clarify again i didn't

500
00:18:21,510 --> 00:18:19,360
say that uh

501
00:18:22,630 --> 00:18:21,520
people should be banned for uh

502
00:18:26,150 --> 00:18:22,640
misinformation

503
00:18:29,350 --> 00:18:26,160
uh i i think it's a policy question

504
00:18:30,789 --> 00:18:29,360
and that is not for me to decide and

505
00:18:33,270 --> 00:18:30,799
that's why i think that

506
00:18:35,029 --> 00:18:33,280
i personally have uneducated opinions

507
00:18:36,310 --> 00:18:35,039
i'm not a policy expert i don't know who

508
00:18:37,669 --> 00:18:36,320
would make that decision i don't know

509
00:18:40,070 --> 00:18:37,679
how you would execute

510
00:18:41,270 --> 00:18:40,080
such a policy you know it's right now

511
00:18:42,870 --> 00:18:41,280
it's up to these private

512
00:18:44,470 --> 00:18:42,880
social media companies to make those

513
00:18:45,830 --> 00:18:44,480
decisions and

514
00:18:47,909 --> 00:18:45,840
we can agree or disagree on their

515
00:18:51,270 --> 00:18:47,919
decisions but

516
00:18:52,390 --> 00:18:51,280
um you know i don't think that

517
00:18:54,789 --> 00:18:52,400
i don't necessarily think that people

518
00:18:56,150 --> 00:18:54,799
should be banned for

519
00:18:57,830 --> 00:18:56,160
spreading this information i want to

520
00:19:00,870 --> 00:18:57,840
make that clear

521
00:19:01,430 --> 00:19:00,880
however like as again like i said there

522
00:19:04,549 --> 00:19:01,440
does come

523
00:19:06,710 --> 00:19:04,559
a point where you have to start weighing

524
00:19:08,870 --> 00:19:06,720
each individual decision how

525
00:19:10,230 --> 00:19:08,880
exactly how harmful is this how much

526
00:19:12,710 --> 00:19:10,240
traction is it picking up how much

527
00:19:14,310 --> 00:19:12,720
actual measurable harm is it causing

528
00:19:15,830 --> 00:19:14,320
so i think those are things to consider

529
00:19:18,789 --> 00:19:15,840
but again i

530
00:19:20,070 --> 00:19:18,799
am not one to make final decisions on

531
00:19:24,630 --> 00:19:20,080
that

532
00:19:26,630 --> 00:19:24,640
be for now i

533
00:19:28,150 --> 00:19:26,640
i i would just say the same thing over

534
00:19:29,830 --> 00:19:28,160
and over again but that's not

535
00:19:31,270 --> 00:19:29,840
going to help us any uh you know what

536
00:19:32,150 --> 00:19:31,280
but i would go to kind of this other

537
00:19:34,549 --> 00:19:32,160
issue because

538
00:19:35,909 --> 00:19:34,559
you mentioned a couple times policy in

539
00:19:37,510 --> 00:19:35,919
what you're saying

540
00:19:40,950 --> 00:19:37,520
and one of the things i think is

541
00:19:43,430 --> 00:19:40,960
interesting about this discussion

542
00:19:45,350 --> 00:19:43,440
is the interface between science and

543
00:19:48,230 --> 00:19:45,360
public health policy

544
00:19:49,669 --> 00:19:48,240
you know i mean i don't care dan if you

545
00:19:51,510 --> 00:19:49,679
wear a mask

546
00:19:52,950 --> 00:19:51,520
i don't care if anyone wears a mask if

547
00:19:55,590 --> 00:19:52,960
they feel safe

548
00:19:56,549 --> 00:19:55,600
wearing a mask for psychological reasons

549
00:19:58,310 --> 00:19:56,559
or for

550
00:19:59,909 --> 00:19:58,320
you know very good reasons because

551
00:20:03,350 --> 00:19:59,919
they're around someone who

552
00:20:04,310 --> 00:20:03,360
has covet 19. i don't care what i care

553
00:20:08,230 --> 00:20:04,320
about

554
00:20:10,950 --> 00:20:08,240
is the science policy making interface

555
00:20:11,669 --> 00:20:10,960
how public policy is made and how

556
00:20:14,390 --> 00:20:11,679
science

557
00:20:15,830 --> 00:20:14,400
informs that public health policy so

558
00:20:17,270 --> 00:20:15,840
when we're talking here

559
00:20:19,350 --> 00:20:17,280
and we're going to talk about masks

560
00:20:20,470 --> 00:20:19,360
whether mask masks work

561
00:20:23,510 --> 00:20:20,480
we're not talking about it from a

562
00:20:26,630 --> 00:20:23,520
personal level right we're talking about

563
00:20:29,029 --> 00:20:26,640
from how science should interface

564
00:20:30,549 --> 00:20:29,039
with public health policy and i guess

565
00:20:32,310 --> 00:20:30,559
what that stirred that up for me

566
00:20:33,750 --> 00:20:32,320
is when you said that's a policy issue

567
00:20:35,669 --> 00:20:33,760
that's a policy issue

568
00:20:37,590 --> 00:20:35,679
inc regarding quote unquote

569
00:20:39,029 --> 00:20:37,600
misinformation well i'd say this whole

570
00:20:41,350 --> 00:20:39,039
discussion we're having

571
00:20:42,710 --> 00:20:41,360
is about policy issues because otherwise

572
00:20:44,549 --> 00:20:42,720
i don't care if you want to sit there in

573
00:20:45,110 --> 00:20:44,559
pittsburgh and wear a mask or not wear a

574
00:20:49,190 --> 00:20:45,120
mask

575
00:20:52,870 --> 00:20:49,200
are we in sync on that absolutely yeah

576
00:20:54,470 --> 00:20:52,880
okay and and you know i think uh

577
00:20:55,909 --> 00:20:54,480
i think the the difference right away

578
00:20:57,909 --> 00:20:55,919
that i'll point out with

579
00:20:59,590 --> 00:20:57,919
the policy decision around you know mass

580
00:21:00,310 --> 00:20:59,600
squaring and the policy decision around

581
00:21:03,669 --> 00:21:00,320
who

582
00:21:06,390 --> 00:21:03,679
gets banned from social media you know

583
00:21:08,390 --> 00:21:06,400
in order to decide who gets banned from

584
00:21:10,549 --> 00:21:08,400
social media like i

585
00:21:11,909 --> 00:21:10,559
said earlier when you're weighing these

586
00:21:13,830 --> 00:21:11,919
things you

587
00:21:15,990 --> 00:21:13,840
you know i don't know how policymakers

588
00:21:19,510 --> 00:21:16,000
would do it again it's not my area of

589
00:21:21,110 --> 00:21:19,520
expertise maybe they weigh how harmful

590
00:21:24,230 --> 00:21:21,120
certain misinformation is maybe they

591
00:21:26,630 --> 00:21:24,240
measure it somehow and decide that way

592
00:21:27,350 --> 00:21:26,640
uh what the policy should be you know

593
00:21:28,950 --> 00:21:27,360
that might be

594
00:21:30,710 --> 00:21:28,960
a way to approach it but a way to

595
00:21:32,470 --> 00:21:30,720
approach mask wearing

596
00:21:34,310 --> 00:21:32,480
is what's the science what can we

597
00:21:36,470 --> 00:21:34,320
measure what does mask wearing actually

598
00:21:41,430 --> 00:21:36,480
do or not do for somebody and then

599
00:21:47,430 --> 00:21:44,950
in terms of mask wearing you know

600
00:21:49,029 --> 00:21:47,440
we have a lot of data about that and i'm

601
00:21:51,510 --> 00:21:49,039
sure we'll discuss all of it

602
00:21:52,950 --> 00:21:51,520
but that to me personally is the

603
00:21:56,230 --> 00:21:52,960
difference between

604
00:21:56,789 --> 00:21:56,240
those two topics great and we certainly

605
00:21:58,390 --> 00:21:56,799
should

606
00:22:00,070 --> 00:21:58,400
dive into the data because we can kind

607
00:22:00,549 --> 00:22:00,080
of down dancing around it a little bit

608
00:22:07,190 --> 00:22:00,559
so

609
00:22:09,270 --> 00:22:07,200
the research you sent me is

610
00:22:10,390 --> 00:22:09,280
partially listed here in a way that no

611
00:22:12,549 --> 00:22:10,400
one can read and

612
00:22:14,230 --> 00:22:12,559
i want to let people know that i'm open

613
00:22:16,870 --> 00:22:14,240
to going to any research that you sent

614
00:22:18,630 --> 00:22:16,880
me but we can't really get to

615
00:22:20,310 --> 00:22:18,640
all of it it's just kind of practically

616
00:22:22,470 --> 00:22:20,320
impossible

617
00:22:23,669 --> 00:22:22,480
but the first thing i want to focus on

618
00:22:27,029 --> 00:22:23,679
is this research

619
00:22:30,390 --> 00:22:27,039
on whether masks filter stuff

620
00:22:33,750 --> 00:22:30,400
out you sent me a bunch of research

621
00:22:35,350 --> 00:22:33,760
on this and i get that some people are

622
00:22:36,950 --> 00:22:35,360
hung up on this issue

623
00:22:40,549 --> 00:22:36,960
but i have to say right from the

624
00:22:43,669 --> 00:22:40,559
beginning this just smacks of science

625
00:22:46,870 --> 00:22:43,679
[\h__\h] it's the old distraction thing

626
00:22:49,909 --> 00:22:46,880
i mean does anyone really think

627
00:22:51,750 --> 00:22:49,919
that masks don't filter stuff that comes

628
00:22:53,430 --> 00:22:51,760
out of and goes into your mouth

629
00:22:55,270 --> 00:22:53,440
this is like what we learned in

630
00:22:57,990 --> 00:22:55,280
kindergarten when your mom said

631
00:23:00,230 --> 00:22:58,000
cover your face when you cough so the

632
00:23:02,750 --> 00:23:00,240
fact that this has kind of been

633
00:23:04,310 --> 00:23:02,760
front and center of the science for

634
00:23:07,110 --> 00:23:04,320
covid19

635
00:23:07,990 --> 00:23:07,120
is really kind of uh one was first

636
00:23:09,830 --> 00:23:08,000
surprising

637
00:23:11,270 --> 00:23:09,840
to me and then when i really thought

638
00:23:14,230 --> 00:23:11,280
about it i was like no

639
00:23:15,510 --> 00:23:14,240
of course this is bringing the topic

640
00:23:17,750 --> 00:23:15,520
onto

641
00:23:19,190 --> 00:23:17,760
your home ice on your home turf where

642
00:23:21,430 --> 00:23:19,200
you can win the war

643
00:23:23,029 --> 00:23:21,440
because what i think and then i really

644
00:23:26,149 --> 00:23:23,039
want to let you have a chance at this

645
00:23:29,990 --> 00:23:26,159
but what i think is really going on here

646
00:23:33,510 --> 00:23:30,000
is that this science is

647
00:23:36,630 --> 00:23:33,520
kind of asking you to make an incorrect

648
00:23:38,789 --> 00:23:36,640
inference and that is that if in a

649
00:23:42,070 --> 00:23:38,799
laboratory setting

650
00:23:42,549 --> 00:23:42,080
we can show that a mask prevents this

651
00:23:44,070 --> 00:23:42,559
stuff

652
00:23:46,390 --> 00:23:44,080
from coming out of your mouth when you

653
00:23:47,430 --> 00:23:46,400
sneeze or cough and prevent stuff from

654
00:23:49,750 --> 00:23:47,440
coming into your mouth

655
00:23:51,110 --> 00:23:49,760
we want you to make the leap towards

656
00:23:54,390 --> 00:23:51,120
saying well then

657
00:23:58,470 --> 00:23:54,400
therefore mask wearing must help

658
00:24:00,950 --> 00:23:58,480
reduce my risk of contracting covid19

659
00:24:02,070 --> 00:24:00,960
what do you think about me suggesting

660
00:24:04,950 --> 00:24:02,080
that that is an

661
00:24:05,830 --> 00:24:04,960
inference that we really shouldn't make

662
00:24:08,390 --> 00:24:05,840
from

663
00:24:10,470 --> 00:24:08,400
for example this research that we see

664
00:24:13,430 --> 00:24:10,480
right here

665
00:24:14,870 --> 00:24:13,440
yeah so um you mind if i share my screen

666
00:24:17,990 --> 00:24:14,880
for a minute

667
00:24:21,110 --> 00:24:18,000
no please do i guess i'll just

668
00:24:24,390 --> 00:24:21,120
um start going into what you sent me uh

669
00:24:25,190 --> 00:24:24,400
mostly stuff by uh dennis rancourt a guy

670
00:24:28,549 --> 00:24:25,200
who's

671
00:24:32,149 --> 00:24:28,559
kind of well known and um

672
00:24:35,990 --> 00:24:32,159
uh i guess covered denying circles

673
00:24:38,789 --> 00:24:36,000
um but uh you know something he writes

674
00:24:39,909 --> 00:24:38,799
in his page that um supposedly debunks

675
00:24:42,149 --> 00:24:39,919
masks

676
00:24:43,430 --> 00:24:42,159
is kind of summarizing what you're

677
00:24:46,310 --> 00:24:43,440
saying here is that

678
00:24:47,590 --> 00:24:46,320
we shouldn't make the assumption that uh

679
00:24:51,430 --> 00:24:47,600
viruses

680
00:24:54,310 --> 00:24:51,440
are actually stopped uh by masks is that

681
00:24:54,789 --> 00:24:54,320
is that a fair representation of what

682
00:24:58,950 --> 00:24:54,799
you're saying

683
00:25:00,390 --> 00:24:58,960
okay no no that is fine i mean

684
00:25:02,789 --> 00:25:00,400
well i will and then i'll let you

685
00:25:04,470 --> 00:25:02,799
explain this because

686
00:25:06,390 --> 00:25:04,480
i want to point out that this is

687
00:25:08,149 --> 00:25:06,400
completely valid and

688
00:25:10,230 --> 00:25:08,159
important what you're saying here you're

689
00:25:13,350 --> 00:25:10,240
because some people are claiming

690
00:25:14,950 --> 00:25:13,360
that masks don't work in the way that

691
00:25:17,029 --> 00:25:14,960
you're saying that they don't work here

692
00:25:19,669 --> 00:25:17,039
that they don't block certain

693
00:25:20,630 --> 00:25:19,679
viruses or bacteria as well as they

694
00:25:24,230 --> 00:25:20,640
should

695
00:25:26,549 --> 00:25:24,240
i'm making a very different

696
00:25:27,669 --> 00:25:26,559
proposition that i don't think you will

697
00:25:29,269 --> 00:25:27,679
disagree with

698
00:25:30,870 --> 00:25:29,279
but i think is really at the center of

699
00:25:32,549 --> 00:25:30,880
this and i'm surprised that denny kind

700
00:25:36,470 --> 00:25:32,559
of goes down the wrong path

701
00:25:39,029 --> 00:25:36,480
it's that let's say i was to accept

702
00:25:40,789 --> 00:25:39,039
that uh you know just like when mom said

703
00:25:43,510 --> 00:25:40,799
cover your mouth when you're cough

704
00:25:44,549 --> 00:25:43,520
that that that that works essentially to

705
00:25:47,350 --> 00:25:44,559
some degree

706
00:25:47,830 --> 00:25:47,360
in terms of stopping you from spreading

707
00:25:49,510 --> 00:25:47,840
this

708
00:25:51,590 --> 00:25:49,520
bad stuff that can make other people

709
00:25:54,149 --> 00:25:51,600
sick right

710
00:25:56,149 --> 00:25:54,159
what i'm saying is that if you prove

711
00:25:59,669 --> 00:25:56,159
that in a lab

712
00:26:03,750 --> 00:25:59,679
that does not lead to the conclusion

713
00:26:06,070 --> 00:26:03,760
that wearing a mask leads should lead to

714
00:26:08,070 --> 00:26:06,080
a reduction in your chances of

715
00:26:11,430 --> 00:26:08,080
contracting covid19

716
00:26:12,390 --> 00:26:11,440
it may but it may not and that's the

717
00:26:14,630 --> 00:26:12,400
difference between

718
00:26:16,470 --> 00:26:14,640
laboratory work and clinical work

719
00:26:18,390 --> 00:26:16,480
clinical work is with humans

720
00:26:20,230 --> 00:26:18,400
and in clinical work we might we might

721
00:26:21,830 --> 00:26:20,240
ask a whole bunch of different questions

722
00:26:24,149 --> 00:26:21,840
how long are you wearing the mask what

723
00:26:25,750 --> 00:26:24,159
kind of mask are you wearing

724
00:26:27,430 --> 00:26:25,760
how are you operating the mask whether

725
00:26:28,390 --> 00:26:27,440
you're touching or not there's all these

726
00:26:30,149 --> 00:26:28,400
other questions

727
00:26:31,990 --> 00:26:30,159
that come in when we get a human

728
00:26:34,789 --> 00:26:32,000
involved which would

729
00:26:36,789 --> 00:26:34,799
lead us to asking different questions

730
00:26:38,149 --> 00:26:36,799
doing different experiments to determine

731
00:26:41,190 --> 00:26:38,159
whether or not the mask

732
00:26:41,590 --> 00:26:41,200
which worked in the lab works in real

733
00:26:44,310 --> 00:26:41,600
life

734
00:26:46,149 --> 00:26:44,320
that's was my point i see i see so you

735
00:26:49,190 --> 00:26:46,159
you want to see the connection between

736
00:26:51,669 --> 00:26:49,200
the lab and the community or the lab and

737
00:26:56,390 --> 00:26:54,390
well i i'm suggesting yes you want to

738
00:26:58,950 --> 00:26:56,400
see those results carry over to

739
00:27:00,230 --> 00:26:58,960
real world situations absolutely because

740
00:27:02,710 --> 00:27:00,240
i mean as a scientist

741
00:27:04,070 --> 00:27:02,720
particularly as a biologist maybe you

742
00:27:06,230 --> 00:27:04,080
want to speak to this

743
00:27:07,830 --> 00:27:06,240
but you'd be kind of making my point but

744
00:27:08,470 --> 00:27:07,840
we've established a lot of [\h__\h] in the

745
00:27:10,950 --> 00:27:08,480
lab

746
00:27:12,470 --> 00:27:10,960
that doesn't work in clinical trials it

747
00:27:13,990 --> 00:27:12,480
seems to work in the lab when we're like

748
00:27:15,590 --> 00:27:14,000
wow this should really be great then we

749
00:27:17,269 --> 00:27:15,600
put it in clinical trials with humes and

750
00:27:18,950 --> 00:27:17,279
it doesn't work

751
00:27:20,389 --> 00:27:18,960
yeah yeah so i'm glad you said that so

752
00:27:22,310 --> 00:27:20,399
yeah i mean there is

753
00:27:24,070 --> 00:27:22,320
you're right there is a stepwise process

754
00:27:26,549 --> 00:27:24,080
to this kind of thing

755
00:27:27,590 --> 00:27:26,559
first you want to show that something

756
00:27:29,269 --> 00:27:27,600
works in a lab

757
00:27:32,149 --> 00:27:29,279
because it's easy to work in a lab it

758
00:27:34,630 --> 00:27:32,159
takes not a lot of resources

759
00:27:35,350 --> 00:27:34,640
and you can tightly control and design

760
00:27:37,909 --> 00:27:35,360
an experiment

761
00:27:39,830 --> 00:27:37,919
pretty easily in a lab so you want to

762
00:27:41,750 --> 00:27:39,840
show that it works there first

763
00:27:43,269 --> 00:27:41,760
and you know we can go through the

764
00:27:45,750 --> 00:27:43,279
studies but uh there are

765
00:27:46,549 --> 00:27:45,760
several that show that masks of course

766
00:27:48,549 --> 00:27:46,559
do

767
00:27:49,750 --> 00:27:48,559
work in the lab they stop viral

768
00:27:52,149 --> 00:27:49,760
particles from

769
00:27:53,830 --> 00:27:52,159
going beyond the mask the mass catches

770
00:27:55,350 --> 00:27:53,840
these viral particles that could

771
00:27:58,310 --> 00:27:55,360
otherwise be detected

772
00:27:59,190 --> 00:27:58,320
uh in these experiments um but there are

773
00:28:02,630 --> 00:27:59,200
also

774
00:28:04,230 --> 00:28:02,640
uh you know of course the next step

775
00:28:05,830 --> 00:28:04,240
after you get done with testing

776
00:28:06,630 --> 00:28:05,840
something in the lab is to say does this

777
00:28:09,830 --> 00:28:06,640
work

778
00:28:12,149 --> 00:28:09,840
situations

779
00:28:13,350 --> 00:28:12,159
so yeah that's a fair thing to want and

780
00:28:14,870 --> 00:28:13,360
um

781
00:28:17,430 --> 00:28:14,880
you know there that's people have

782
00:28:19,590 --> 00:28:17,440
studied that and there are some

783
00:28:21,029 --> 00:28:19,600
randomized controlled trials clustered

784
00:28:22,070 --> 00:28:21,039
randomized controlled trials that

785
00:28:24,310 --> 00:28:22,080
demonstrate

786
00:28:25,430 --> 00:28:24,320
that masks do work in community settings

787
00:28:26,710 --> 00:28:25,440
and they look at

788
00:28:29,590 --> 00:28:26,720
variables and you're right it's really

789
00:28:31,510 --> 00:28:29,600
complicated to study masks and it's

790
00:28:33,029 --> 00:28:31,520
part of the reason why sometimes the

791
00:28:36,789 --> 00:28:33,039
literature can be

792
00:28:38,549 --> 00:28:36,799
hard to um traverse but

793
00:28:40,230 --> 00:28:38,559
uh there are several studies that

794
00:28:42,710 --> 00:28:40,240
discuss all these nuances

795
00:28:44,070 --> 00:28:42,720
such as when do when do masks get

796
00:28:46,389 --> 00:28:44,080
implemented

797
00:28:47,909 --> 00:28:46,399
how compliant are people with the masks

798
00:28:50,389 --> 00:28:47,919
were there other things that

799
00:28:51,990 --> 00:28:50,399
were controlled for in the experiment

800
00:28:55,029 --> 00:28:52,000
and

801
00:28:55,669 --> 00:28:55,039
what you end up with is are experiments

802
00:28:57,590 --> 00:28:55,679
that

803
00:28:59,350 --> 00:28:57,600
all of them have some weakness all of

804
00:29:00,710 --> 00:28:59,360
them have some weakness that

805
00:29:02,950 --> 00:29:00,720
the researchers can't control for

806
00:29:03,830 --> 00:29:02,960
because it's tough to test humans humans

807
00:29:07,110 --> 00:29:03,840
are terrible

808
00:29:10,630 --> 00:29:07,120
test subjects to have um but i think

809
00:29:11,990 --> 00:29:10,640
that if we dive into it we'll see that

810
00:29:13,830 --> 00:29:12,000
what the researchers have been able to

811
00:29:17,669 --> 00:29:13,840
find is that

812
00:29:21,510 --> 00:29:17,679
masks do reduce transmission um

813
00:29:23,350 --> 00:29:21,520
when used properly okay so we we will be

814
00:29:25,269 --> 00:29:23,360
we will begin to dive into that and i

815
00:29:28,310 --> 00:29:25,279
think you know let me just say that

816
00:29:29,750 --> 00:29:28,320
in i thought the research that you sent

817
00:29:32,710 --> 00:29:29,760
was very fair

818
00:29:34,310 --> 00:29:32,720
um it it as a matter of fact i was kind

819
00:29:37,430 --> 00:29:34,320
of surprised that you

820
00:29:41,669 --> 00:29:37,440
sent it because it does kind of reveal

821
00:29:44,310 --> 00:29:41,679
how complicated and how uh

822
00:29:46,470 --> 00:29:44,320
really up in the air this topic is it is

823
00:29:47,990 --> 00:29:46,480
not clearly decided one way or another

824
00:29:49,350 --> 00:29:48,000
and the way that i kind of played around

825
00:29:50,950 --> 00:29:49,360
with the idea

826
00:29:53,590 --> 00:29:50,960
was to say to really look at the

827
00:29:55,510 --> 00:29:53,600
question we need a time machine

828
00:29:57,269 --> 00:29:55,520
and the time machine would go back to

829
00:30:00,389 --> 00:29:57,279
2003 when we had

830
00:30:02,470 --> 00:30:00,399
a covet virus that was very dangerous

831
00:30:04,149 --> 00:30:02,480
it's called sars a lot of people were

832
00:30:07,430 --> 00:30:04,159
really worried about it

833
00:30:10,149 --> 00:30:07,440
and we looked at whether mask wearing

834
00:30:10,950 --> 00:30:10,159
would be good because the mask wearing

835
00:30:13,269 --> 00:30:10,960
question

836
00:30:15,110 --> 00:30:13,279
right like you alluded to it's been

837
00:30:16,549 --> 00:30:15,120
around for a long time right and masks

838
00:30:18,310 --> 00:30:16,559
have been around a long time and

839
00:30:19,590 --> 00:30:18,320
the idea that you know masks will

840
00:30:24,630 --> 00:30:19,600
prevent the spread of

841
00:30:26,070 --> 00:30:24,640
influenza or air transmitted diseases

842
00:30:27,750 --> 00:30:26,080
has been around for a long time so

843
00:30:29,510 --> 00:30:27,760
they've looked at it and as a matter of

844
00:30:31,590 --> 00:30:29,520
fact it's kind of surprising

845
00:30:33,430 --> 00:30:31,600
that they keep finding over and over

846
00:30:37,269 --> 00:30:33,440
again that

847
00:30:38,710 --> 00:30:37,279
masks do not work for the most part

848
00:30:41,909 --> 00:30:38,720
you know i mean this is the old

849
00:30:45,430 --> 00:30:41,919
literature 2009 2010

850
00:30:46,470 --> 00:30:45,440
uh 2012. and you you of course can cite

851
00:30:49,510 --> 00:30:46,480
different research

852
00:30:50,789 --> 00:30:49,520
but these are good research unless you

853
00:30:51,909 --> 00:30:50,799
want to come in and say some of them

854
00:30:53,510 --> 00:30:51,919
aren't but again

855
00:30:54,710 --> 00:30:53,520
they're applying the same the people are

856
00:30:56,389 --> 00:30:54,720
looking at this are saying the same

857
00:30:56,870 --> 00:30:56,399
thing do we have a randomized controlled

858
00:31:00,950 --> 00:30:56,880
trial

859
00:31:03,110 --> 00:31:00,960
are we really uh properly evaluating

860
00:31:04,630 --> 00:31:03,120
whether or not the end result is what we

861
00:31:06,549 --> 00:31:04,640
thought we'd give laboratory tests of

862
00:31:08,470 --> 00:31:06,559
whether or not there was the virus or is

863
00:31:11,509 --> 00:31:08,480
somebody just self-reporting it so

864
00:31:14,070 --> 00:31:11,519
there's all this research over time

865
00:31:15,669 --> 00:31:14,080
that kept coming back and telling us

866
00:31:17,909 --> 00:31:15,679
that masks

867
00:31:19,029 --> 00:31:17,919
surprisingly don't seem to be

868
00:31:20,870 --> 00:31:19,039
efficacious

869
00:31:23,190 --> 00:31:20,880
and the reason we know that is because

870
00:31:27,110 --> 00:31:23,200
when we go in our time machine

871
00:31:30,070 --> 00:31:27,120
and when we go to sars there was no mask

872
00:31:33,029 --> 00:31:30,080
mandates when we went to the swine flu

873
00:31:35,669 --> 00:31:33,039
in 2008 there were no mask mandates

874
00:31:36,149 --> 00:31:35,679
when we go to the super bowl last year

875
00:31:39,669 --> 00:31:36,159
when

876
00:31:42,070 --> 00:31:39,679
kansas city won and there's all the fans

877
00:31:43,029 --> 00:31:42,080
and it was a big flu season there were

878
00:31:45,590 --> 00:31:43,039
no mask

879
00:31:46,070 --> 00:31:45,600
mandates and the reason it wasn't

880
00:31:49,190 --> 00:31:46,080
because

881
00:31:52,470 --> 00:31:49,200
everyone was asleep at the switch so

882
00:31:55,350 --> 00:31:52,480
plan along with me dan would you agree

883
00:31:58,870 --> 00:31:55,360
with that part that there was science

884
00:32:00,630 --> 00:31:58,880
prior to january 2020

885
00:32:04,789 --> 00:32:00,640
and the conclusion of that science had

886
00:32:07,029 --> 00:32:04,799
been that masks weren't efficacious

887
00:32:08,549 --> 00:32:07,039
uh i wouldn't agree with that actually

888
00:32:11,509 --> 00:32:08,559
uh there were

889
00:32:13,509 --> 00:32:11,519
there was plenty of research to say that

890
00:32:16,870 --> 00:32:13,519
i'd say overall the general message

891
00:32:19,990 --> 00:32:16,880
of the literature especially prior to

892
00:32:21,590 --> 00:32:20,000
2020 when it comes to mask wearing was

893
00:32:24,149 --> 00:32:21,600
that

894
00:32:25,909 --> 00:32:24,159
let's see if i could sum it up i think i

895
00:32:29,190 --> 00:32:25,919
would say

896
00:32:31,029 --> 00:32:29,200
mask wearing helps but we don't know

897
00:32:32,789 --> 00:32:31,039
the full extent of it and it's hard to

898
00:32:34,470 --> 00:32:32,799
study

899
00:32:36,470 --> 00:32:34,480
uh that's not exactly what's generally

900
00:32:38,710 --> 00:32:36,480
that's generally that's not what the cdc

901
00:32:40,470 --> 00:32:38,720
said that wasn't the conclusion i mean

902
00:32:41,990 --> 00:32:40,480
even in the study you sent me the first

903
00:32:43,830 --> 00:32:42,000
study and we'll look at it in a minute

904
00:32:46,070 --> 00:32:43,840
the opening line of the study is hey

905
00:32:47,830 --> 00:32:46,080
there's a lot of controversy about masks

906
00:32:49,509 --> 00:32:47,840
some really good studies say they don't

907
00:32:52,070 --> 00:32:49,519
work some say they do work

908
00:32:54,310 --> 00:32:52,080
so i mean i don't think i'm exaggerating

909
00:32:55,750 --> 00:32:54,320
here even the cdc had come down and said

910
00:32:57,669 --> 00:32:55,760
gee we don't know we don't quite

911
00:32:58,230 --> 00:32:57,679
understand why masks don't work but at

912
00:33:00,470 --> 00:32:58,240
this time

913
00:33:01,990 --> 00:33:00,480
we can't really recommend the widespread

914
00:33:05,669 --> 00:33:02,000
use of masks

915
00:33:07,509 --> 00:33:05,679
in these uh situations i mean that was

916
00:33:09,269 --> 00:33:07,519
that was the situation we were in that's

917
00:33:10,070 --> 00:33:09,279
what we all lived i mean we all lived it

918
00:33:13,990 --> 00:33:10,080
and experienced

919
00:33:17,590 --> 00:33:14,000
it well the okay we'll go into it for

920
00:33:20,789 --> 00:33:17,600
a little bit here um i think that

921
00:33:23,590 --> 00:33:20,799
um let's see uh

922
00:33:24,710 --> 00:33:23,600
you bring up dennis rancourt's list of

923
00:33:28,470 --> 00:33:24,720
studies

924
00:33:31,750 --> 00:33:28,480
on that page you just showed i think um

925
00:33:34,870 --> 00:33:31,760
where he talks about the reasons why

926
00:33:39,430 --> 00:33:34,880
phase max face masks uh don't work

927
00:33:41,590 --> 00:33:39,440
um so let me just go through

928
00:33:43,669 --> 00:33:41,600
let's just pick the first paper in order

929
00:33:47,029 --> 00:33:43,679
that he brings up

930
00:33:50,070 --> 00:33:47,039
um to say that masks

931
00:33:51,350 --> 00:33:50,080
don't work so this is a study he lists

932
00:33:53,750 --> 00:33:51,360
from

933
00:33:57,029 --> 00:33:53,760
japan it's a randomized controlled trial

934
00:33:59,750 --> 00:33:57,039
of mask wearing in healthcare workers

935
00:34:00,470 --> 00:33:59,760
and so they had one group they had two

936
00:34:03,350 --> 00:34:00,480
groups one

937
00:34:04,830 --> 00:34:03,360
one group wore face masks one did not

938
00:34:07,750 --> 00:34:04,840
they had

939
00:34:11,030 --> 00:34:07,760
um uh you know

940
00:34:13,589 --> 00:34:11,040
decent number of people uh two thousand

941
00:34:14,310 --> 00:34:13,599
about two and a half thousand subjects

942
00:34:17,190 --> 00:34:14,320
uh but

943
00:34:19,030 --> 00:34:17,200
out of all of these subjects uh there

944
00:34:21,909 --> 00:34:19,040
were only two colds

945
00:34:23,430 --> 00:34:21,919
that occurred one in each group and so

946
00:34:24,550 --> 00:34:23,440
the conclusion was basically a larger

947
00:34:26,950 --> 00:34:24,560
study as needed

948
00:34:28,869 --> 00:34:26,960
now this to me doesn't really say that

949
00:34:31,109 --> 00:34:28,879
masks don't work i'm not sure why dennis

950
00:34:34,470 --> 00:34:31,119
would include it in his list

951
00:34:36,389 --> 00:34:34,480
um but moving on to you know his

952
00:34:37,909 --> 00:34:36,399
his second study which i think is has a

953
00:34:39,909 --> 00:34:37,919
little bit more substance because it's a

954
00:34:43,030 --> 00:34:39,919
systematic review

955
00:34:44,389 --> 00:34:43,040
um looking at mask wearing uh

956
00:34:46,629 --> 00:34:44,399
right in the summary it says you know

957
00:34:48,069 --> 00:34:46,639
there and this is from 2010 says there

958
00:34:49,909 --> 00:34:48,079
is some evidence to support

959
00:34:51,349 --> 00:34:49,919
the wearing of face mask respirators

960
00:34:53,270 --> 00:34:51,359
during illness to protect

961
00:34:55,270 --> 00:34:53,280
others and public health emphasis on

962
00:34:59,109 --> 00:34:55,280
mask wearing during illness may help

963
00:35:00,630 --> 00:34:59,119
to reduce influenza virus transmission

964
00:35:02,710 --> 00:35:00,640
there are fewer data to support use of

965
00:35:03,750 --> 00:35:02,720
masks or respirators to prevent becoming

966
00:35:07,190 --> 00:35:03,760
infected and this is

967
00:35:09,109 --> 00:35:07,200
again in reference to influenza

968
00:35:10,630 --> 00:35:09,119
we go through the papers that the

969
00:35:13,910 --> 00:35:10,640
systematic review

970
00:35:16,710 --> 00:35:13,920
looked at and

971
00:35:18,310 --> 00:35:16,720
we start to see that you know the

972
00:35:21,109 --> 00:35:18,320
evidence although

973
00:35:21,990 --> 00:35:21,119
although they don't specifically say

974
00:35:25,829 --> 00:35:22,000
that

975
00:35:28,950 --> 00:35:25,839
uh mask wearing is significantly

976
00:35:29,270 --> 00:35:28,960
is this really significant uh measure

977
00:35:30,870 --> 00:35:29,280
that

978
00:35:34,790 --> 00:35:30,880
everybody should take all the time in

979
00:35:36,310 --> 00:35:34,800
every in every disease situation

980
00:35:37,910 --> 00:35:36,320
my point is that the evidence is

981
00:35:41,990 --> 00:35:37,920
definitely leaning towards

982
00:35:44,069 --> 00:35:42,000
um the effectiveness of of masks

983
00:35:45,829 --> 00:35:44,079
and so yeah you can go through these

984
00:35:49,270 --> 00:35:45,839
studies here that

985
00:35:52,150 --> 00:35:49,280
this uh meta-analysis goes over they

986
00:35:53,990 --> 00:35:52,160
find randomized controlled trials that

987
00:35:56,470 --> 00:35:54,000
find um

988
00:35:58,230 --> 00:35:56,480
that find effectiveness in mask wearing

989
00:36:00,630 --> 00:35:58,240
among healthcare workers they've

990
00:36:01,670 --> 00:36:00,640
mentioned the japan study and also

991
00:36:04,390 --> 00:36:01,680
mentioned that

992
00:36:05,990 --> 00:36:04,400
it's underpowered to detect any

993
00:36:08,310 --> 00:36:06,000
significance because only two people got

994
00:36:11,829 --> 00:36:10,550
and they also talk about a study that

995
00:36:14,950 --> 00:36:11,839
was generally

996
00:36:20,550 --> 00:36:14,960
inconclusive while also talking about

997
00:36:26,870 --> 00:36:23,750
observational studies from the 1918

998
00:36:27,270 --> 00:36:26,880
influenza in boston that suggests that

999
00:36:29,589 --> 00:36:27,280
max

1000
00:36:30,390 --> 00:36:29,599
masks do work so you go through these

1001
00:36:33,030 --> 00:36:30,400
papers and

1002
00:36:33,910 --> 00:36:33,040
you start to read what they're actually

1003
00:36:36,470 --> 00:36:33,920
saying

1004
00:36:37,990 --> 00:36:36,480
instead of you know just dennis's kind

1005
00:36:41,190 --> 00:36:38,000
of

1006
00:36:41,990 --> 00:36:41,200
picked out quotes and you start to get

1007
00:36:45,670 --> 00:36:42,000
this picture that

1008
00:36:48,790 --> 00:36:45,680
mask wearing had a lot of precedence

1009
00:36:50,630 --> 00:36:48,800
uh even before the coca-19 pandemic uh

1010
00:36:53,990 --> 00:36:50,640
this one specifically

1011
00:36:57,430 --> 00:36:54,000
uh a study in a community setting

1012
00:37:03,270 --> 00:37:00,470
although they didn't really uh

1013
00:37:04,069 --> 00:37:03,280
observe much significance significant

1014
00:37:05,990 --> 00:37:04,079
reduction of

1015
00:37:07,430 --> 00:37:06,000
illness associated with mask wearing

1016
00:37:12,310 --> 00:37:07,440
when they

1017
00:37:14,230 --> 00:37:12,320
for

1018
00:37:16,230 --> 00:37:14,240
the timing of the intervention so within

1019
00:37:17,510 --> 00:37:16,240
36 hours of symptom onset and again this

1020
00:37:19,829 --> 00:37:17,520
is dealing with influenza not

1021
00:37:21,510 --> 00:37:19,839
coronavirus

1022
00:37:23,990 --> 00:37:21,520
they did see a statistically significant

1023
00:37:27,270 --> 00:37:24,000
reduction in laboratory confirmed

1024
00:37:28,630 --> 00:37:27,280
influenza so they kind of start to bring

1025
00:37:30,069 --> 00:37:28,640
in this nuance that you mentioned in the

1026
00:37:32,390 --> 00:37:30,079
beginning like

1027
00:37:33,270 --> 00:37:32,400
like when are people using it how are

1028
00:37:36,150 --> 00:37:33,280
they

1029
00:37:37,349 --> 00:37:36,160
uh handling it you know this doesn't

1030
00:37:39,030 --> 00:37:37,359
measure how many times people touch

1031
00:37:41,349 --> 00:37:39,040
their face with the mask of course but

1032
00:37:42,550 --> 00:37:41,359
it starts to bring that nuance in and it

1033
00:37:45,910 --> 00:37:42,560
finds support

1034
00:37:49,670 --> 00:37:45,920
for uh mask wearing and you can

1035
00:37:53,190 --> 00:37:49,680
continue to go through and find that

1036
00:37:56,069 --> 00:37:53,200
it's pretty much false what

1037
00:37:56,550 --> 00:37:56,079
uh rant court is saying um that none of

1038
00:37:58,310 --> 00:37:56,560
this

1039
00:37:59,750 --> 00:37:58,320
studies showed a benefit in either

1040
00:38:00,790 --> 00:37:59,760
healthcare workers or community members

1041
00:38:04,150 --> 00:38:00,800
that is false if you

1042
00:38:06,870 --> 00:38:04,160
actually read these meta-analyses

1043
00:38:07,430 --> 00:38:06,880
um it's it's not it's not accurate it's

1044
00:38:09,109 --> 00:38:07,440
not a

1045
00:38:11,349 --> 00:38:09,119
good representation of what the science

1046
00:38:13,910 --> 00:38:11,359
actually said

1047
00:38:16,470 --> 00:38:13,920
okay i'll do your not a good

1048
00:38:18,790 --> 00:38:16,480
representation of what the science says

1049
00:38:19,829 --> 00:38:18,800
one better so here's the first one that

1050
00:38:23,190 --> 00:38:19,839
you sent me

1051
00:38:24,310 --> 00:38:23,200
after the mask one and uh anyone can

1052
00:38:27,430 --> 00:38:24,320
read it they're

1053
00:38:28,069 --> 00:38:27,440
peer-reviewed and it is a systematic

1054
00:38:30,470 --> 00:38:28,079
review

1055
00:38:32,550 --> 00:38:30,480
again it's a meta-analysis right so

1056
00:38:36,069 --> 00:38:32,560
maybe you want to explain to people

1057
00:38:38,950 --> 00:38:36,079
what a meta-analysis is so um

1058
00:38:40,390 --> 00:38:38,960
a meta-analysis is just when researchers

1059
00:38:43,190 --> 00:38:40,400
basically look at

1060
00:38:44,390 --> 00:38:43,200
a body of literature and try to come up

1061
00:38:47,430 --> 00:38:44,400
with

1062
00:38:49,990 --> 00:38:47,440
a summary based on the data that

1063
00:38:51,349 --> 00:38:50,000
has been collected over many years by

1064
00:38:53,270 --> 00:38:51,359
several researchers and published in

1065
00:38:55,750 --> 00:38:53,280
several different papers

1066
00:38:56,550 --> 00:38:55,760
uh kind of a summary of lots of years of

1067
00:38:59,589 --> 00:38:56,560
research

1068
00:39:00,310 --> 00:38:59,599
is what a meta-analysis is so here we

1069
00:39:03,030 --> 00:39:00,320
have

1070
00:39:04,390 --> 00:39:03,040
the results of that meta-analysis and it

1071
00:39:07,589 --> 00:39:04,400
says they started with

1072
00:39:08,870 --> 00:39:07,599
all these potential relevant citations

1073
00:39:10,550 --> 00:39:08,880
which again speaks to

1074
00:39:12,310 --> 00:39:10,560
the point we're making about you know

1075
00:39:14,790 --> 00:39:12,320
it's hard to do this kind of science

1076
00:39:16,550 --> 00:39:14,800
they do this complete breakdown of all

1077
00:39:18,870 --> 00:39:16,560
these studies that they looked at

1078
00:39:20,550 --> 00:39:18,880
and they looked at the effectiveness of

1079
00:39:23,430 --> 00:39:20,560
disinfecting and hygiene

1080
00:39:24,150 --> 00:39:23,440
of creating barriers of combined of all

1081
00:39:25,990 --> 00:39:24,160
this stuff

1082
00:39:27,589 --> 00:39:26,000
and what they come to again and again

1083
00:39:28,310 --> 00:39:27,599
and this isn't the study that you sent

1084
00:39:30,390 --> 00:39:28,320
me

1085
00:39:31,349 --> 00:39:30,400
statistical significance was not

1086
00:39:34,470 --> 00:39:31,359
attained

1087
00:39:36,310 --> 00:39:34,480
and they'll say that again did not the

1088
00:39:37,270 --> 00:39:36,320
group did not reach statistical

1089
00:39:39,990 --> 00:39:37,280
significance

1090
00:39:41,109 --> 00:39:40,000
so over and over again there is no

1091
00:39:44,870 --> 00:39:41,119
conclusive

1092
00:39:47,990 --> 00:39:44,880
evidence so i sent you the rancor stuff

1093
00:39:49,430 --> 00:39:48,000
denny is i think fantastic but i don't

1094
00:39:51,910 --> 00:39:49,440
like follow him

1095
00:39:53,910 --> 00:39:51,920
i go and read the research like one of

1096
00:39:56,630 --> 00:39:53,920
the research studies that you sent me is

1097
00:39:58,230 --> 00:39:56,640
this hong kong research in the

1098
00:40:00,630 --> 00:39:58,240
households involved in laboratory

1099
00:40:03,349 --> 00:40:00,640
confirmed cases

1100
00:40:05,109 --> 00:40:03,359
actually the one you sent me was a phone

1101
00:40:08,470 --> 00:40:05,119
interview

1102
00:40:10,710 --> 00:40:08,480
of people in hong kong i mean

1103
00:40:12,630 --> 00:40:10,720
it where there was never even a

1104
00:40:14,550 --> 00:40:12,640
laboratory confirmed cases

1105
00:40:16,550 --> 00:40:14,560
they just said at the end well did you

1106
00:40:16,950 --> 00:40:16,560
get really sick it sounds like you had

1107
00:40:20,069 --> 00:40:16,960
it

1108
00:40:22,550 --> 00:40:20,079
on

1109
00:40:24,390 --> 00:40:22,560
that side of it so over and over again

1110
00:40:27,430 --> 00:40:24,400
my read of this data

1111
00:40:29,589 --> 00:40:27,440
is it does not reach statistical

1112
00:40:30,710 --> 00:40:29,599
significance and again you know like

1113
00:40:32,950 --> 00:40:30,720
you're putting down

1114
00:40:34,950 --> 00:40:32,960
or you were just making your point that

1115
00:40:36,950 --> 00:40:34,960
rancor had sent

1116
00:40:38,550 --> 00:40:36,960
links to studies that didn't really

1117
00:40:40,150 --> 00:40:38,560
support what he was saying

1118
00:40:42,550 --> 00:40:40,160
i would say you've done the same thing

1119
00:40:45,030 --> 00:40:42,560
here in saying here it is alex

1120
00:40:46,309 --> 00:40:45,040
here my number one is that masks really

1121
00:40:48,390 --> 00:40:46,319
work and i say well

1122
00:40:50,470 --> 00:40:48,400
who cares we already knew that masks

1123
00:40:52,309 --> 00:40:50,480
work it's whether or not they're

1124
00:40:53,910 --> 00:40:52,319
effective in helping reduce it because

1125
00:40:56,390 --> 00:40:53,920
what we really care about is

1126
00:40:57,990 --> 00:40:56,400
is wearing a mask going to help me not

1127
00:40:59,589 --> 00:40:58,000
get the covet disease

1128
00:41:01,109 --> 00:40:59,599
so the only way we can do that is move

1129
00:41:02,710 --> 00:41:01,119
the clinical trials and we'll move to

1130
00:41:03,030 --> 00:41:02,720
the clinical trials and again again they

1131
00:41:05,349 --> 00:41:03,040
say

1132
00:41:07,270 --> 00:41:05,359
there's no statistically significant

1133
00:41:08,150 --> 00:41:07,280
result that suggests that you should

1134
00:41:09,990 --> 00:41:08,160
wear a mask

1135
00:41:11,829 --> 00:41:10,000
and the reason that we know that is just

1136
00:41:13,589 --> 00:41:11,839
observable right

1137
00:41:15,270 --> 00:41:13,599
no one requires masks they didn't

1138
00:41:17,109 --> 00:41:15,280
require masks in the hospital

1139
00:41:19,270 --> 00:41:17,119
they didn't require masks in public

1140
00:41:23,190 --> 00:41:19,280
places all these things mask

1141
00:41:26,950 --> 00:41:23,200
mandates didn't happen until

1142
00:41:27,829 --> 00:41:26,960
the uh 2020 in in april so the question

1143
00:41:30,390 --> 00:41:27,839
that i think

1144
00:41:32,550 --> 00:41:30,400
is just i don't even know that it should

1145
00:41:33,270 --> 00:41:32,560
be controversial between us but it might

1146
00:41:37,430 --> 00:41:33,280
be

1147
00:41:38,069 --> 00:41:37,440
is what is the science that propelled us

1148
00:41:41,109 --> 00:41:38,079
to

1149
00:41:44,069 --> 00:41:41,119
this new level of policy

1150
00:41:45,990 --> 00:41:44,079
so i wouldn't say that it was new

1151
00:41:49,990 --> 00:41:46,000
science that propelled us to

1152
00:41:52,550 --> 00:41:50,000
uh adopt the policy or

1153
00:41:53,510 --> 00:41:52,560
you know encourage policies of mass

1154
00:41:56,150 --> 00:41:53,520
mandates

1155
00:41:58,069 --> 00:41:56,160
it was just a changing situation uh

1156
00:42:00,470 --> 00:41:58,079
because

1157
00:42:02,390 --> 00:42:00,480
like i said before you know the general

1158
00:42:05,510 --> 00:42:02,400
consensus in science before

1159
00:42:09,589 --> 00:42:05,520
the pandemic was that mask wearing

1160
00:42:12,870 --> 00:42:09,599
helps and it shouldn't be

1161
00:42:14,550 --> 00:42:12,880
the first thing we do you know

1162
00:42:16,150 --> 00:42:14,560
consistently in these papers they will

1163
00:42:18,230 --> 00:42:16,160
say things like

1164
00:42:19,829 --> 00:42:18,240
you might see things like uh mass

1165
00:42:22,950 --> 00:42:19,839
mandate should be

1166
00:42:23,190 --> 00:42:22,960
um a last resort uh where does it show

1167
00:42:27,030 --> 00:42:23,200
me

1168
00:42:32,390 --> 00:42:27,040
let's see uh

1169
00:42:35,910 --> 00:42:34,230
because my read of it says that it's

1170
00:42:37,510 --> 00:42:35,920
inconclusive it's just

1171
00:42:39,030 --> 00:42:37,520
inconclusive we don't know it as a

1172
00:42:40,550 --> 00:42:39,040
matter of fact they kind of say this

1173
00:42:42,230 --> 00:42:40,560
seems to be kind of a mystery because we

1174
00:42:44,230 --> 00:42:42,240
would expect masks

1175
00:42:46,630 --> 00:42:44,240
to work better than they do but every

1176
00:42:49,270 --> 00:42:46,640
time we put them in clinical trials

1177
00:42:51,190 --> 00:42:49,280
there's the the effect is not

1178
00:42:53,670 --> 00:42:51,200
statistically significant and some of

1179
00:42:57,109 --> 00:42:53,680
the studies even show an adverse effect

1180
00:43:02,470 --> 00:43:00,710
i'll have to circle back to the um

1181
00:43:03,990 --> 00:43:02,480
study that says that math should be a

1182
00:43:08,230 --> 00:43:04,000
last resort um

1183
00:43:11,910 --> 00:43:08,240
but just for now uh trying to

1184
00:43:14,230 --> 00:43:11,920
address what i can uh this study um

1185
00:43:16,550 --> 00:43:14,240
which you brought up uh

1186
00:43:17,589 --> 00:43:16,560
is yeah a study i sent to you and it's

1187
00:43:19,270 --> 00:43:17,599
what i included in this little

1188
00:43:21,349 --> 00:43:19,280
powerpoint presentation but

1189
00:43:22,790 --> 00:43:21,359
the reason i send it to you is uh if you

1190
00:43:24,069 --> 00:43:22,800
see what i highlighted

1191
00:43:26,790 --> 00:43:24,079
is because i thought this was a good

1192
00:43:29,910 --> 00:43:26,800
example of how complicated the

1193
00:43:31,430 --> 00:43:29,920
literature can be so this is looking at

1194
00:43:33,349 --> 00:43:31,440
the use of non-pharmaceutical

1195
00:43:35,510 --> 00:43:33,359
intervention in reducing the

1196
00:43:38,550 --> 00:43:35,520
transmission of influenza

1197
00:43:39,829 --> 00:43:38,560
and they say that common issues

1198
00:43:42,150 --> 00:43:39,839
in all these studies where that

1199
00:43:43,829 --> 00:43:42,160
protective effects of each individual

1200
00:43:46,309 --> 00:43:43,839
intervention were difficult to discern

1201
00:43:48,710 --> 00:43:46,319
including hand washing including

1202
00:43:50,150 --> 00:43:48,720
um you know the other uh

1203
00:43:51,349 --> 00:43:50,160
non-pharmaceutical interventions that

1204
00:43:55,190 --> 00:43:51,359
were studied

1205
00:43:59,190 --> 00:43:55,200
in this analysis in this meta-analysis

1206
00:44:02,150 --> 00:43:59,200
uh or systematic review rather um

1207
00:44:03,990 --> 00:44:02,160
they're saying that uh adherence to face

1208
00:44:07,030 --> 00:44:04,000
mask use in particular

1209
00:44:08,069 --> 00:44:07,040
is poorly described as an indicating

1210
00:44:10,470 --> 00:44:08,079
ability to demonstrate

1211
00:44:12,550 --> 00:44:10,480
significant change through small numbers

1212
00:44:14,150 --> 00:44:12,560
so they're saying adherence to face mask

1213
00:44:15,190 --> 00:44:14,160
use is a problem in a lot of these

1214
00:44:17,270 --> 00:44:15,200
studies it's hard to

1215
00:44:18,470 --> 00:44:17,280
control for that as we have already

1216
00:44:19,829 --> 00:44:18,480
talked about so i thought that was a

1217
00:44:24,150 --> 00:44:19,839
good example

1218
00:44:26,390 --> 00:44:24,160
of uh of that but if you

1219
00:44:27,990 --> 00:44:26,400
you know a good example of what dan

1220
00:44:28,710 --> 00:44:28,000
because i read that differently than you

1221
00:44:31,430 --> 00:44:28,720
do

1222
00:44:32,790 --> 00:44:31,440
oh it's a it's a good example of how

1223
00:44:35,270 --> 00:44:32,800
hard it is to study

1224
00:44:36,790 --> 00:44:35,280
in the community setting and why you

1225
00:44:40,710 --> 00:44:36,800
know

1226
00:44:44,069 --> 00:44:40,720
literature

1227
00:44:45,750 --> 00:44:44,079
might give the wrong impression

1228
00:44:48,230 --> 00:44:45,760
right and i guess i take that one step

1229
00:44:49,030 --> 00:44:48,240
further and say there's two ways to read

1230
00:44:52,069 --> 00:44:49,040
that

1231
00:44:54,150 --> 00:44:52,079
one is way to read it is to say gee if

1232
00:44:55,589 --> 00:44:54,160
people would just wear their masks we

1233
00:44:56,470 --> 00:44:55,599
probably would have gotten better

1234
00:44:58,630 --> 00:44:56,480
results

1235
00:45:01,349 --> 00:44:58,640
and i would say that study doesn't say

1236
00:45:03,750 --> 00:45:01,359
that that study just says what it says

1237
00:45:04,950 --> 00:45:03,760
it says it's difficult to control for it

1238
00:45:07,190 --> 00:45:04,960
like you said

1239
00:45:08,710 --> 00:45:07,200
and the point that i would again bring

1240
00:45:09,270 --> 00:45:08,720
up and maybe you want to comment it

1241
00:45:11,990 --> 00:45:09,280
maybe

1242
00:45:13,270 --> 00:45:12,000
you don't is that if this science had

1243
00:45:15,750 --> 00:45:13,280
reached the point

1244
00:45:16,950 --> 00:45:15,760
where there seemed to be a significant

1245
00:45:19,670 --> 00:45:16,960
health benefit

1246
00:45:20,950 --> 00:45:19,680
from mask wearing and we were seriously

1247
00:45:24,470 --> 00:45:20,960
contemplating

1248
00:45:26,230 --> 00:45:24,480
in a kind of public health policy way

1249
00:45:28,790 --> 00:45:26,240
whether or not mask wearing was a good

1250
00:45:31,510 --> 00:45:28,800
idea the first thing we do

1251
00:45:32,309 --> 00:45:31,520
is look at the adverse potential adverse

1252
00:45:34,150 --> 00:45:32,319
effects

1253
00:45:36,150 --> 00:45:34,160
of mask wearing we don't have any

1254
00:45:38,309 --> 00:45:36,160
science on that and the reason we don't

1255
00:45:40,550 --> 00:45:38,319
have any science on that we do now

1256
00:45:42,630 --> 00:45:40,560
people are saying there's reduced oxygen

1257
00:45:45,190 --> 00:45:42,640
flow they're saying that in some cases

1258
00:45:48,150 --> 00:45:45,200
maybe even the masks contribute to

1259
00:45:49,349 --> 00:45:48,160
contracting various respiratory diseases

1260
00:45:51,990 --> 00:45:49,359
because bacteria

1261
00:45:52,790 --> 00:45:52,000
and viruses can concentrate in the masks

1262
00:45:54,550 --> 00:45:52,800
none of that

1263
00:45:56,710 --> 00:45:54,560
science is studied and there still needs

1264
00:45:58,790 --> 00:45:56,720
to be a lot more done

1265
00:46:00,150 --> 00:45:58,800
but all the science that we're reviewing

1266
00:46:03,030 --> 00:46:00,160
here is really on

1267
00:46:04,870 --> 00:46:03,040
one side of the equation and that is can

1268
00:46:07,349 --> 00:46:04,880
we show that masks work

1269
00:46:09,670 --> 00:46:07,359
if we were really going to be fair from

1270
00:46:12,150 --> 00:46:09,680
a policy making standpoint we'd balance

1271
00:46:14,309 --> 00:46:12,160
that with a whole bunch of science on

1272
00:46:15,829 --> 00:46:14,319
whether or not whether or not masks

1273
00:46:19,270 --> 00:46:15,839
might be harmful

1274
00:46:21,030 --> 00:46:19,280
would you agree with that or no

1275
00:46:23,750 --> 00:46:21,040
sure yeah and i think the research is

1276
00:46:29,430 --> 00:46:23,760
there um for that but just to

1277
00:46:31,990 --> 00:46:29,440
um just to you know continue on uh

1278
00:46:32,870 --> 00:46:32,000
extend from that uh review that we just

1279
00:46:35,990 --> 00:46:32,880
talked about

1280
00:46:38,230 --> 00:46:36,000
um you know liter

1281
00:46:39,430 --> 00:46:38,240
one important thing to do uh in science

1282
00:46:41,349 --> 00:46:39,440
is to look at

1283
00:46:43,430 --> 00:46:41,359
the literature as a whole you know one

1284
00:46:46,069 --> 00:46:43,440
paper even if it's a review

1285
00:46:49,109 --> 00:46:46,079
doesn't necessarily represent the entire

1286
00:46:52,550 --> 00:46:49,119
body of literature so you have to

1287
00:46:54,390 --> 00:46:52,560
uh go from study to study and see if

1288
00:46:56,950 --> 00:46:54,400
their conclusions are consistent right

1289
00:47:00,470 --> 00:46:56,960
reproducibility is important in science

1290
00:47:04,950 --> 00:47:00,480
and so here's just uh one

1291
00:47:07,270 --> 00:47:04,960
meta-analysis uh that ends up concluding

1292
00:47:08,550 --> 00:47:07,280
that face mask use demonstrated mixed

1293
00:47:10,950 --> 00:47:08,560
results as we

1294
00:47:11,829 --> 00:47:10,960
explain as we just went over for various

1295
00:47:14,069 --> 00:47:11,839
reasons

1296
00:47:15,750 --> 00:47:14,079
but a randomized controlled trial

1297
00:47:17,349 --> 00:47:15,760
suggests that it is effective

1298
00:47:20,150 --> 00:47:17,359
and that randomized controlled trial is

1299
00:47:22,950 --> 00:47:20,160
referenced in in this paper

1300
00:47:25,030 --> 00:47:22,960
and there are a couple other randomized

1301
00:47:27,670 --> 00:47:25,040
control trials that

1302
00:47:29,349 --> 00:47:27,680
i've sent to you and pulled up here

1303
00:47:30,870 --> 00:47:29,359
where

1304
00:47:33,030 --> 00:47:30,880
again it's looking at influenza not

1305
00:47:35,829 --> 00:47:33,040
necessarily coronaviruses

1306
00:47:36,549 --> 00:47:35,839
but face masks were found in these

1307
00:47:38,230 --> 00:47:36,559
clustered

1308
00:47:40,549 --> 00:47:38,240
randomized controlled trials to be

1309
00:47:43,910 --> 00:47:40,559
effective in reducing

1310
00:47:46,549 --> 00:47:43,920
the uh illness especially again you know

1311
00:47:47,829 --> 00:47:46,559
we see this 36 hour after symptom onset

1312
00:47:51,109 --> 00:47:47,839
number come up

1313
00:47:52,309 --> 00:47:51,119
timing is important when you implement

1314
00:47:55,510 --> 00:47:52,319
mask learning

1315
00:47:57,910 --> 00:47:55,520
uh so there are data to show that

1316
00:47:58,870 --> 00:47:57,920
um mask wearing is effective in

1317
00:48:01,750 --> 00:47:58,880
controlled

1318
00:48:02,870 --> 00:48:01,760
community settings uh here's another one

1319
00:48:06,950 --> 00:48:02,880
and

1320
00:48:08,309 --> 00:48:06,960
um i included this one just to say that

1321
00:48:09,990 --> 00:48:08,319
the litter one other point in the

1322
00:48:13,270 --> 00:48:10,000
literature is that not

1323
00:48:14,710 --> 00:48:13,280
mask wearing but um other

1324
00:48:16,390 --> 00:48:14,720
interventions in addition to mask

1325
00:48:17,589 --> 00:48:16,400
learning is even better than mask

1326
00:48:21,190 --> 00:48:17,599
squaring alone

1327
00:48:22,870 --> 00:48:21,200
you know we we we say that mask wearing

1328
00:48:24,790 --> 00:48:22,880
is not 100 effective you know if that

1329
00:48:25,190 --> 00:48:24,800
were true then we could just wear masks

1330
00:48:26,790 --> 00:48:25,200
and

1331
00:48:28,309 --> 00:48:26,800
that would be the only thing we change

1332
00:48:30,230 --> 00:48:28,319
in our lives but

1333
00:48:31,589 --> 00:48:30,240
that's not what's been happening you

1334
00:48:33,430 --> 00:48:31,599
know we have

1335
00:48:34,630 --> 00:48:33,440
we we get recommended mask wearing and

1336
00:48:38,069 --> 00:48:34,640
social distancing

1337
00:48:40,230 --> 00:48:38,079
and hand washing and you know we get

1338
00:48:42,470 --> 00:48:40,240
we hear about proper ventilation and etc

1339
00:48:42,950 --> 00:48:42,480
etc it's because all combining all of

1340
00:48:45,190 --> 00:48:42,960
these

1341
00:48:46,470 --> 00:48:45,200
tactics together will give us a better

1342
00:48:49,190 --> 00:48:46,480
chance at

1343
00:48:49,990 --> 00:48:49,200
uh eliminating or just reducing we don't

1344
00:48:53,349 --> 00:48:50,000
we don't

1345
00:48:55,349 --> 00:48:53,359
dan

1346
00:48:56,630 --> 00:48:55,359
how we're just looking at we're reading

1347
00:48:59,109 --> 00:48:56,640
the same study here

1348
00:49:00,549 --> 00:48:59,119
overall direct evidence of the effect

1349
00:49:03,589 --> 00:49:00,559
efficacy of mass

1350
00:49:06,069 --> 00:49:03,599
use is supportive but inconclusive well

1351
00:49:07,510 --> 00:49:06,079
again i don't i don't know

1352
00:49:09,670 --> 00:49:07,520
it's supportive in the sense of

1353
00:49:10,710 --> 00:49:09,680
laboratory work and it's supportive in

1354
00:49:12,950 --> 00:49:10,720
the sense of

1355
00:49:14,309 --> 00:49:12,960
some randomized controlled trials that

1356
00:49:17,030 --> 00:49:14,319
you can show

1357
00:49:18,790 --> 00:49:17,040
but it is inconclusive which is

1358
00:49:20,230 --> 00:49:18,800
ultimately the answer

1359
00:49:22,950 --> 00:49:20,240
just to follow that point a little bit i

1360
00:49:25,990 --> 00:49:22,960
think it's unfair to say that

1361
00:49:28,950 --> 00:49:26,000
inconclusive means we have no idea

1362
00:49:30,230 --> 00:49:28,960
you know inconclusive means we need

1363
00:49:32,470 --> 00:49:30,240
better data and

1364
00:49:33,510 --> 00:49:32,480
we should get better data but the data

1365
00:49:36,390 --> 00:49:33,520
that we have

1366
00:49:38,309 --> 00:49:36,400
is supported so when we're dealing with

1367
00:49:41,430 --> 00:49:38,319
a pandemic that is rapidly

1368
00:49:43,109 --> 00:49:41,440
spinning out of control we want to use

1369
00:49:45,910 --> 00:49:43,119
the tools that we have available to us

1370
00:49:46,630 --> 00:49:45,920
and evidence is supportive of mask

1371
00:49:49,829 --> 00:49:46,640
wearing

1372
00:49:52,950 --> 00:49:49,839
so why should we not use those tools and

1373
00:49:56,230 --> 00:49:52,960
you know you bring up adverse effects

1374
00:49:59,109 --> 00:49:56,240
due to masks we can talk about that but

1375
00:50:00,069 --> 00:49:59,119
you can um bring up what you were going

1376
00:50:01,750 --> 00:50:00,079
to bring up

1377
00:50:03,589 --> 00:50:01,760
i i don't want to just keep spinning on

1378
00:50:04,470 --> 00:50:03,599
the same points we might do that a

1379
00:50:07,910 --> 00:50:04,480
little bit

1380
00:50:10,069 --> 00:50:07,920
but we're getting to

1381
00:50:12,069 --> 00:50:10,079
the point that we kind of started at is

1382
00:50:15,109 --> 00:50:12,079
the interface

1383
00:50:17,109 --> 00:50:15,119
between science and policy making

1384
00:50:18,710 --> 00:50:17,119
and the first thing that i'd say is that

1385
00:50:20,150 --> 00:50:18,720
interface should be incredibly

1386
00:50:23,270 --> 00:50:20,160
transparent

1387
00:50:26,549 --> 00:50:23,280
and the means by which

1388
00:50:29,910 --> 00:50:26,559
mandates of this type unprecedented

1389
00:50:32,950 --> 00:50:29,920
mandates are instituted

1390
00:50:34,950 --> 00:50:32,960
should be clear in terms of why

1391
00:50:35,990 --> 00:50:34,960
how and for how long they're being

1392
00:50:39,349 --> 00:50:36,000
implemented

1393
00:50:40,549 --> 00:50:39,359
none of that was done the science in my

1394
00:50:43,990 --> 00:50:40,559
opinion

1395
00:50:48,150 --> 00:50:44,000
in no in no way would support

1396
00:50:50,510 --> 00:50:48,160
mandatory uh mandates with masks

1397
00:50:51,829 --> 00:50:50,520
this could easily be done with

1398
00:50:55,750 --> 00:50:51,839
recommendations

1399
00:50:59,030 --> 00:50:55,760
baloney board of

1400
00:50:59,829 --> 00:50:59,040
you know white collab coded guys up

1401
00:51:01,990 --> 00:50:59,839
there and have

1402
00:51:03,750 --> 00:51:02,000
one say one thing and one say another

1403
00:51:05,829 --> 00:51:03,760
and let people decide

1404
00:51:07,349 --> 00:51:05,839
uh there's all sorts of ways to do this

1405
00:51:08,870 --> 00:51:07,359
and then

1406
00:51:10,790 --> 00:51:08,880
the other thing is we have to hear all

1407
00:51:13,270 --> 00:51:10,800
the voices like we started

1408
00:51:14,230 --> 00:51:13,280
we're panning people we're banning

1409
00:51:16,630 --> 00:51:14,240
scientists

1410
00:51:18,390 --> 00:51:16,640
from this discussion and there's no

1411
00:51:19,349 --> 00:51:18,400
arguing about that you can just go and

1412
00:51:23,910 --> 00:51:19,359
find him

1413
00:51:25,349 --> 00:51:23,920
that is unprecedented and it's all done

1414
00:51:26,950 --> 00:51:25,359
under and that's the point i wanted to

1415
00:51:31,270 --> 00:51:26,960
make it's all done

1416
00:51:34,470 --> 00:51:31,280
under a very very shaky scientific idea

1417
00:51:35,349 --> 00:51:34,480
and that is well the severity of the

1418
00:51:38,470 --> 00:51:35,359
health crisis

1419
00:51:41,910 --> 00:51:38,480
demanded it it doesn't work like that

1420
00:51:44,069 --> 00:51:41,920
you can't amplify inconclusive and get

1421
00:51:44,950 --> 00:51:44,079
conclusive out of it because it's really

1422
00:51:47,670 --> 00:51:44,960
dangerous

1423
00:51:50,069 --> 00:51:47,680
it doesn't work that way either you have

1424
00:51:52,230 --> 00:51:50,079
statistically significant results and

1425
00:51:54,790 --> 00:51:52,240
you can roll them out and get more

1426
00:51:55,349 --> 00:51:54,800
or you don't and you have to sit back

1427
00:51:58,870 --> 00:51:55,359
and do

1428
00:52:00,790 --> 00:51:58,880
more of the hard legwork in research

1429
00:52:02,790 --> 00:52:00,800
and come up with a solution i guess i

1430
00:52:06,230 --> 00:52:02,800
would just say you know

1431
00:52:06,950 --> 00:52:06,240
we might be in a semantics battle but

1432
00:52:09,510 --> 00:52:06,960
you know

1433
00:52:10,790 --> 00:52:09,520
one thing that i think a lot of people

1434
00:52:12,630 --> 00:52:10,800
have a problem with

1435
00:52:14,470 --> 00:52:12,640
um when it comes to information during

1436
00:52:17,510 --> 00:52:14,480
this pandemic is

1437
00:52:18,069 --> 00:52:17,520
that the science might seem shaky and

1438
00:52:21,190 --> 00:52:18,079
that they

1439
00:52:24,150 --> 00:52:21,200
use language like may or

1440
00:52:24,790 --> 00:52:24,160
you know inconclusive but if you look at

1441
00:52:32,790 --> 00:52:24,800
the

1442
00:52:34,950 --> 00:52:32,800
that masks are effective and

1443
00:52:36,309 --> 00:52:34,960
the inconclusive and the may that

1444
00:52:38,390 --> 00:52:36,319
language comes from

1445
00:52:39,829 --> 00:52:38,400
this desire of scientists to say like

1446
00:52:42,150 --> 00:52:39,839
you know this evidence

1447
00:52:43,109 --> 00:52:42,160
could be stronger we could do stronger

1448
00:52:44,390 --> 00:52:43,119
tests because

1449
00:52:46,230 --> 00:52:44,400
the ultimate test to do in this

1450
00:52:47,109 --> 00:52:46,240
situation is a randomized controlled

1451
00:52:49,910 --> 00:52:47,119
trial and there

1452
00:52:51,589 --> 00:52:49,920
aren't a lot of randomized controlled

1453
00:52:52,549 --> 00:52:51,599
trials when it comes to mask wearing

1454
00:52:54,630 --> 00:52:52,559
because

1455
00:52:56,150 --> 00:52:54,640
we haven't had any opportunities to do

1456
00:52:59,990 --> 00:52:56,160
to do a kind of study like that

1457
00:53:02,630 --> 00:53:00,000
and it's uh difficult to

1458
00:53:03,910 --> 00:53:02,640
do you know um there's also the ethical

1459
00:53:07,190 --> 00:53:03,920
question of

1460
00:53:10,950 --> 00:53:07,200
do you in the pandemic uh

1461
00:53:12,470 --> 00:53:10,960
do you assign people to a group where

1462
00:53:14,790 --> 00:53:12,480
they don't wear masks and possibly put

1463
00:53:19,589 --> 00:53:14,800
them at more risk

1464
00:53:23,030 --> 00:53:19,599
um but i guess yeah my point is just

1465
00:53:26,309 --> 00:53:23,040
it's it's not as uncertain as

1466
00:53:26,790 --> 00:53:26,319
um you know the language might make it

1467
00:53:30,150 --> 00:53:26,800
seem

1468
00:53:31,109 --> 00:53:30,160
to be because i just completely disagree

1469
00:53:34,309 --> 00:53:31,119
with that because

1470
00:53:36,470 --> 00:53:34,319
okay the language of science is numbers

1471
00:53:37,750 --> 00:53:36,480
and particularly these kind of it's

1472
00:53:42,790 --> 00:53:37,760
statistics

1473
00:53:46,309 --> 00:53:42,800
of statistical significance

1474
00:53:48,390 --> 00:53:46,319
or they can't there's no it comes close

1475
00:53:50,069 --> 00:53:48,400
it comes close in this study it doesn't

1476
00:53:52,309 --> 00:53:50,079
come close in this study

1477
00:53:53,750 --> 00:53:52,319
i mean and that's the the reason that we

1478
00:53:55,750 --> 00:53:53,760
do meta-analysis

1479
00:53:56,790 --> 00:53:55,760
if i could just point out you know we do

1480
00:53:59,829 --> 00:53:56,800
have

1481
00:54:01,750 --> 00:53:59,839
um statistically significant results

1482
00:54:02,470 --> 00:54:01,760
saying that masks are effective you know

1483
00:54:06,309 --> 00:54:02,480
we

1484
00:54:06,319 --> 00:54:09,349
let's see

1485
00:54:09,359 --> 00:54:12,710
analyzing households

1486
00:54:19,910 --> 00:54:16,870
uh significantly lower so

1487
00:54:23,190 --> 00:54:19,920
comparing the mast only group

1488
00:54:26,470 --> 00:54:23,200
to basque and hygiene group

1489
00:54:29,270 --> 00:54:26,480
uh the secondary infection was

1490
00:54:30,150 --> 00:54:29,280
significantly lower compared to the

1491
00:54:32,309 --> 00:54:30,160
control group

1492
00:54:33,670 --> 00:54:32,319
in both the mask and mass hand washing

1493
00:54:36,829 --> 00:54:33,680
group i mean that's

1494
00:54:38,230 --> 00:54:36,839
there's statistical significance there

1495
00:54:39,829 --> 00:54:38,240
um

1496
00:54:41,670 --> 00:54:39,839
you know you can find statistically

1497
00:54:44,150 --> 00:54:41,680
significant results in several studies

1498
00:54:45,589 --> 00:54:44,160
it's not just we're totally uncertain

1499
00:54:46,950 --> 00:54:45,599
and we're pulling this out of nowhere

1500
00:54:48,630 --> 00:54:46,960
and now

1501
00:54:50,069 --> 00:54:48,640
now we just hope it works you know

1502
00:54:52,789 --> 00:54:50,079
there's a lot of reason

1503
00:54:54,470 --> 00:54:52,799
behind this um including all the way

1504
00:54:57,270 --> 00:54:54,480
from laboratory studies all

1505
00:54:58,470 --> 00:54:57,280
to community settings all that all those

1506
00:55:01,109 --> 00:54:58,480
experiments

1507
00:55:02,470 --> 00:55:01,119
there are data in every category there

1508
00:55:05,750 --> 00:55:02,480
it's not perfect data

1509
00:55:06,470 --> 00:55:05,760
we could have more data but the data

1510
00:55:09,829 --> 00:55:06,480
that we have

1511
00:55:11,589 --> 00:55:09,839
suggests that it works well okay so we

1512
00:55:13,109 --> 00:55:11,599
can just kind of disagree on that the

1513
00:55:15,270 --> 00:55:13,119
study you were just pulling up

1514
00:55:16,950 --> 00:55:15,280
actually had uh 80 participants in that

1515
00:55:17,829 --> 00:55:16,960
study that wouldn't be like a super

1516
00:55:20,069 --> 00:55:17,839
strong

1517
00:55:21,030 --> 00:55:20,079
study and you acknowledged that and i

1518
00:55:22,470 --> 00:55:21,040
guess

1519
00:55:24,230 --> 00:55:22,480
i would go back you know i mean we've

1520
00:55:27,270 --> 00:55:24,240
got to just be kind of

1521
00:55:28,390 --> 00:55:27,280
share it all out there and here's here's

1522
00:55:31,829 --> 00:55:28,400
denny again

1523
00:55:34,549 --> 00:55:31,839
and you pulled apart one of his research

1524
00:55:35,589 --> 00:55:34,559
studies that he cited but really over

1525
00:55:39,190 --> 00:55:35,599
and over again

1526
00:55:39,670 --> 00:55:39,200
there's there's case study after case

1527
00:55:41,829 --> 00:55:39,680
study

1528
00:55:43,349 --> 00:55:41,839
and he actually has the quotes none of

1529
00:55:45,190 --> 00:55:43,359
these studies reviewed show a benefit of

1530
00:55:46,309 --> 00:55:45,200
wearing a mask in community members

1531
00:55:48,390 --> 00:55:46,319
households tables

1532
00:55:49,750 --> 00:55:48,400
one and two therein and i've looked at

1533
00:55:51,589 --> 00:55:49,760
those uh

1534
00:55:53,030 --> 00:55:51,599
there are 17 eligible studies none of

1535
00:55:53,910 --> 00:55:53,040
the studies establish a conclusive

1536
00:55:56,870 --> 00:55:53,920
relationship

1537
00:55:57,750 --> 00:55:56,880
between mask respirator use protect uh

1538
00:56:01,589 --> 00:55:57,760
and protection

1539
00:56:04,710 --> 00:56:01,599
influence and influence infection so

1540
00:56:07,510 --> 00:56:04,720
it's not like uh this guy in here with

1541
00:56:08,069 --> 00:56:07,520
smith in 2016 we identified six clinical

1542
00:56:10,470 --> 00:56:08,079
studies

1543
00:56:11,829 --> 00:56:10,480
in the meta-analysis of them we found no

1544
00:56:15,270 --> 00:56:11,839
significant difference

1545
00:56:17,349 --> 00:56:15,280
between uh masks and the risk of

1546
00:56:20,789 --> 00:56:17,359
laboratory confirmed infection

1547
00:56:22,390 --> 00:56:20,799
so you know it's not like the people on

1548
00:56:25,430 --> 00:56:22,400
the other side of this

1549
00:56:28,150 --> 00:56:25,440
are making this stuff up they're citing

1550
00:56:28,549 --> 00:56:28,160
science the same way that you're citing

1551
00:56:32,549 --> 00:56:28,559
it

1552
00:56:35,750 --> 00:56:32,559
and the conclusion that that you come to

1553
00:56:36,870 --> 00:56:35,760
is not supported by the conclusion that

1554
00:56:39,270 --> 00:56:36,880
the cdc

1555
00:56:41,030 --> 00:56:39,280
eventually came to well so like i say in

1556
00:56:41,829 --> 00:56:41,040
last year's super bowl when the chiefs

1557
00:56:44,789 --> 00:56:41,839
won

1558
00:56:46,309 --> 00:56:44,799
no one was wearing masks so all this

1559
00:56:47,270 --> 00:56:46,319
research that we're talking about was

1560
00:56:50,069 --> 00:56:47,280
available

1561
00:56:51,349 --> 00:56:50,079
and they could have implemented or

1562
00:56:53,270 --> 00:56:51,359
strongly recommended

1563
00:56:55,670 --> 00:56:53,280
it's not even a mandate they could have

1564
00:56:57,990 --> 00:56:55,680
strongly recommended at that point

1565
00:56:59,910 --> 00:56:58,000
that during flu season everyone wear a

1566
00:57:01,910 --> 00:56:59,920
mask they could have recommended at the

1567
00:57:04,150 --> 00:57:01,920
super bowl that if you're in the at-risk

1568
00:57:05,589 --> 00:57:04,160
group you should wear a mask none of

1569
00:57:08,950 --> 00:57:05,599
that was done

1570
00:57:11,190 --> 00:57:08,960
that speaks to where the cdc

1571
00:57:12,390 --> 00:57:11,200
and not like the cdc or the world health

1572
00:57:15,829 --> 00:57:12,400
organization is the be

1573
00:57:16,789 --> 00:57:15,839
all end-all but that speaks to the state

1574
00:57:20,069 --> 00:57:16,799
of the science

1575
00:57:21,670 --> 00:57:20,079
i don't know why we can't find agreement

1576
00:57:24,069 --> 00:57:21,680
on that because i think

1577
00:57:25,910 --> 00:57:24,079
that's we all lived through it there was

1578
00:57:27,750 --> 00:57:25,920
no recommendation from ask wearing at

1579
00:57:29,349 --> 00:57:27,760
that time

1580
00:57:30,950 --> 00:57:29,359
yeah i would think that's more of a

1581
00:57:32,870 --> 00:57:30,960
cultural thing than

1582
00:57:34,470 --> 00:57:32,880
a science thing honestly there are

1583
00:57:36,470 --> 00:57:34,480
different well then

1584
00:57:38,870 --> 00:57:36,480
then great then great then you're saying

1585
00:57:41,270 --> 00:57:38,880
that the change that we've had

1586
00:57:43,190 --> 00:57:41,280
is a cultural thing and i would agree it

1587
00:57:44,390 --> 00:57:43,200
should be a science thing and it's not

1588
00:57:47,349 --> 00:57:44,400
it's a cultural thing

1589
00:57:49,190 --> 00:57:47,359
there's no big massive wave of science

1590
00:57:51,510 --> 00:57:49,200
that came out in 2020

1591
00:57:52,710 --> 00:57:51,520
that turned things the other way it's a

1592
00:57:55,990 --> 00:57:52,720
cultural thing

1593
00:57:58,390 --> 00:57:56,000
it's a political thing it's a scion

1594
00:57:59,670 --> 00:57:58,400
no i'm saying that i think the reason

1595
00:58:02,870 --> 00:57:59,680
masks weren't pushed

1596
00:58:03,190 --> 00:58:02,880
hardly recommended uh is a cultural

1597
00:58:05,030 --> 00:58:03,200
thing

1598
00:58:06,549 --> 00:58:05,040
you know there are other nations that

1599
00:58:08,069 --> 00:58:06,559
have always worn masks

1600
00:58:09,589 --> 00:58:08,079
that a masquerade has always been a

1601
00:58:11,430 --> 00:58:09,599
strong part of their culture

1602
00:58:12,789 --> 00:58:11,440
and in america it just hasn't and that's

1603
00:58:14,150 --> 00:58:12,799
not necessarily a reflection of the

1604
00:58:17,270 --> 00:58:14,160
science in my opinion

1605
00:58:21,109 --> 00:58:17,280
but i'd like to just go

1606
00:58:25,750 --> 00:58:21,119
hop over to uh back to uh dennis's

1607
00:58:27,270 --> 00:58:25,760
list here um i have

1608
00:58:29,750 --> 00:58:27,280
some of his papers pulled up we already

1609
00:58:33,349 --> 00:58:29,760
went over that one but uh

1610
00:58:34,870 --> 00:58:33,359
yeah so the use of face masks uh

1611
00:58:37,190 --> 00:58:34,880
respirators to prevent transmission of

1612
00:58:39,589 --> 00:58:37,200
influenza he had this on his list and he

1613
00:58:40,950 --> 00:58:39,599
had this to say about it that

1614
00:58:42,710 --> 00:58:40,960
he picked out that there were 17

1615
00:58:44,150 --> 00:58:42,720
eligible studies none of the studies

1616
00:58:45,829 --> 00:58:44,160
established a conclusive relationship

1617
00:58:48,230 --> 00:58:45,839
with the massage respiratory use and

1618
00:58:50,230 --> 00:58:48,240
protection against influenza infection

1619
00:58:51,430 --> 00:58:50,240
but in the study if you read it it says

1620
00:58:54,549 --> 00:58:51,440
that none of the studies can

1621
00:58:55,510 --> 00:58:54,559
establish a conclusive link but some

1622
00:58:57,270 --> 00:58:55,520
evidence does

1623
00:58:59,190 --> 00:58:57,280
suggest that masked use is best

1624
00:59:02,630 --> 00:58:59,200
undertaken as part of a package

1625
00:59:06,230 --> 00:59:02,640
of personal protection and that

1626
00:59:08,710 --> 00:59:06,240
mask use is the success of mass use is

1627
00:59:10,870 --> 00:59:08,720
likely linked to its early and

1628
00:59:11,910 --> 00:59:10,880
consistent and correct usage because in

1629
00:59:13,990 --> 00:59:11,920
this study

1630
00:59:15,270 --> 00:59:14,000
they did control for factors such as

1631
00:59:17,030 --> 00:59:15,280
like did

1632
00:59:19,190 --> 00:59:17,040
health care workers wear their masks

1633
00:59:20,950 --> 00:59:19,200
their entire shift or did they not

1634
00:59:22,470 --> 00:59:20,960
and when they found that when they

1635
00:59:23,829 --> 00:59:22,480
looked at that and saw that mass

1636
00:59:25,910 --> 00:59:23,839
uh healthcare workers who were their

1637
00:59:27,750 --> 00:59:25,920
master and tireshare did have a

1638
00:59:31,109 --> 00:59:27,760
statistically significant

1639
00:59:32,069 --> 00:59:31,119
uh lower uh outcome lower disease

1640
00:59:34,549 --> 00:59:32,079
outcome

1641
00:59:35,349 --> 00:59:34,559
uh that is what they're reporting here

1642
00:59:36,870 --> 00:59:35,359
they're saying that

1643
00:59:38,950 --> 00:59:36,880
it's likely linked to consistent and

1644
00:59:42,309 --> 00:59:38,960
correct usage but

1645
00:59:45,910 --> 00:59:42,319
um moving on to his other studies

1646
00:59:47,829 --> 00:59:45,920
can i reject something there your point

1647
00:59:50,549 --> 00:59:47,839
is well taken to a certain extent

1648
00:59:52,950 --> 00:59:50,559
but if this science part of this

1649
00:59:54,870 --> 00:59:52,960
discussion can be useful to anyone

1650
00:59:56,069 --> 00:59:54,880
one of the things that i know about

1651
00:59:59,349 --> 00:59:56,079
these kind of studies

1652
01:00:00,230 --> 00:59:59,359
is a lot of times they feel it necessary

1653
01:00:03,589 --> 01:00:00,240
to report

1654
01:00:05,109 --> 01:00:03,599
on their speculation about what their

1655
01:00:08,150 --> 01:00:05,119
study might be

1656
01:00:09,910 --> 01:00:08,160
but it really isn't within the game to

1657
01:00:12,309 --> 01:00:09,920
kind of change the goal post

1658
01:00:12,950 --> 01:00:12,319
during it right so if you don't go into

1659
01:00:15,030 --> 01:00:12,960
the study

1660
01:00:17,670 --> 01:00:15,040
initially and say okay we're going to

1661
01:00:20,230 --> 01:00:17,680
control for how long they use it

1662
01:00:21,030 --> 01:00:20,240
and wear it during the study then you

1663
01:00:23,030 --> 01:00:21,040
can't really

1664
01:00:24,950 --> 01:00:23,040
at the end of the day say hey we did

1665
01:00:26,710 --> 01:00:24,960
notice this little statistical

1666
01:00:28,630 --> 01:00:26,720
difference and we should pursue it

1667
01:00:31,829 --> 01:00:28,640
further i'm not saying that that

1668
01:00:34,069 --> 01:00:31,839
isn't a potentially important uh

1669
01:00:35,510 --> 01:00:34,079
conclusion or an important point that

1670
01:00:36,549 --> 01:00:35,520
needs to be studied further and

1671
01:00:38,789 --> 01:00:36,559
controlled further

1672
01:00:39,990 --> 01:00:38,799
but i i don't think denny on the other

1673
01:00:41,670 --> 01:00:40,000
hand is really

1674
01:00:44,069 --> 01:00:41,680
misrepresenting the science when the

1675
01:00:45,750 --> 01:00:44,079
scientists say hey we have a speculation

1676
01:00:46,950 --> 01:00:45,760
that it might fall this way or that way

1677
01:00:50,309 --> 01:00:46,960
but what we found

1678
01:00:53,109 --> 01:00:50,319
was not statistically significant

1679
01:00:54,549 --> 01:00:53,119
well again there are statistically

1680
01:00:55,829 --> 01:00:54,559
significant findings but

1681
01:00:57,750 --> 01:00:55,839
yeah yeah but we're talking about this

1682
01:00:59,910 --> 01:00:57,760
study i mean yes so you

1683
01:01:01,990 --> 01:00:59,920
but we're talking about this study right

1684
01:01:02,549 --> 01:01:02,000
sure and inconclusive findings does not

1685
01:01:04,710 --> 01:01:02,559
mean

1686
01:01:06,710 --> 01:01:04,720
statistically insignificant it's just

1687
01:01:08,710 --> 01:01:06,720
right but it doesn't mean that it is

1688
01:01:10,309 --> 01:01:08,720
significant and it doesn't mean that if

1689
01:01:11,990 --> 01:01:10,319
you didn't control for it a different

1690
01:01:12,630 --> 01:01:12,000
way or if you didn't look at the adverse

1691
01:01:14,710 --> 01:01:12,640
effects

1692
01:01:16,470 --> 01:01:14,720
it would counterbalance it so this is a

1693
01:01:18,789 --> 01:01:16,480
good discussion because it's how

1694
01:01:21,270 --> 01:01:18,799
where we keep coming back to science is

1695
01:01:21,750 --> 01:01:21,280
complicated and therefore my conclusion

1696
01:01:25,589 --> 01:01:21,760
is

1697
01:01:27,910 --> 01:01:25,599
policy making should be equally complex

1698
01:01:28,870 --> 01:01:27,920
complicated and in particular

1699
01:01:32,870 --> 01:01:28,880
transparent

1700
01:01:35,829 --> 01:01:32,880
and uh that's where i come down sure

1701
01:01:37,589 --> 01:01:35,839
and but so if we look at um you know

1702
01:01:44,710 --> 01:01:37,599
other

1703
01:01:46,789 --> 01:01:44,720
so this study is comparing n95 masks to

1704
01:01:51,430 --> 01:01:46,799
surgical masks

1705
01:01:52,789 --> 01:01:51,440
and what he ends up saying is that

1706
01:01:54,549 --> 01:01:52,799
there's no significant difference

1707
01:01:56,789 --> 01:01:54,559
between them

1708
01:01:58,230 --> 01:01:56,799
uh and he goes on later to say that if

1709
01:02:00,710 --> 01:01:58,240
masks do work

1710
01:02:02,789 --> 01:02:00,720
then you would expect n95s to work

1711
01:02:05,270 --> 01:02:02,799
better than surgical masks

1712
01:02:06,710 --> 01:02:05,280
uh but that's really a misleading claim

1713
01:02:08,630 --> 01:02:06,720
uh i

1714
01:02:10,549 --> 01:02:08,640
it's not necessarily going to be that

1715
01:02:14,390 --> 01:02:10,559
way because

1716
01:02:17,510 --> 01:02:14,400
uh you know if if a mask

1717
01:02:19,270 --> 01:02:17,520
is masks aren't 100 effective

1718
01:02:20,630 --> 01:02:19,280
masts are going to block most of the

1719
01:02:23,750 --> 01:02:20,640
viral particles that come

1720
01:02:26,950 --> 01:02:23,760
out of someone's nose and mouth but

1721
01:02:28,950 --> 01:02:26,960
you aren't necessarily going to see

1722
01:02:30,470 --> 01:02:28,960
a difference between n95 and cervical

1723
01:02:32,390 --> 01:02:30,480
masses in every

1724
01:02:33,990 --> 01:02:32,400
uh situation especially when it comes to

1725
01:02:37,270 --> 01:02:34,000
influenza which spreads

1726
01:02:40,549 --> 01:02:37,280
through aerosols more readily than

1727
01:02:41,510 --> 01:02:40,559
certain other viruses so that is a great

1728
01:02:43,589 --> 01:02:41,520
point but that

1729
01:02:45,109 --> 01:02:43,599
really kind of goes back to my point i'm

1730
01:02:45,430 --> 01:02:45,119
going to ask denny about that i don't

1731
01:02:46,870 --> 01:02:45,440
know

1732
01:02:49,029 --> 01:02:46,880
really well i mean i just had a couple

1733
01:02:50,710 --> 01:02:49,039
email exchanges with him and i read his

1734
01:02:51,670 --> 01:02:50,720
paper but i'm going to ask him about

1735
01:02:53,670 --> 01:02:51,680
that because

1736
01:02:56,390 --> 01:02:53,680
your point in this case is the point i

1737
01:02:59,190 --> 01:02:56,400
keep making is we can't make inferences

1738
01:03:00,230 --> 01:02:59,200
that propel us beyond the known science

1739
01:03:03,589 --> 01:03:00,240
so if you're saying

1740
01:03:04,230 --> 01:03:03,599
if the study is comparing n95 and uh and

1741
01:03:06,470 --> 01:03:04,240
masks

1742
01:03:07,910 --> 01:03:06,480
then you can't extrapolate and say oh

1743
01:03:10,230 --> 01:03:07,920
well then that means this for that

1744
01:03:11,910 --> 01:03:10,240
well i i'm saying the same thing if you

1745
01:03:13,670 --> 01:03:11,920
have a study and it is ultimately

1746
01:03:14,470 --> 01:03:13,680
inconclusive and not statistically

1747
01:03:17,029 --> 01:03:14,480
significant

1748
01:03:19,029 --> 01:03:17,039
you can't say oh gee or it's really

1749
01:03:20,950 --> 01:03:19,039
close or since this virus is

1750
01:03:24,069 --> 01:03:20,960
really really bad we should jump on

1751
01:03:26,870 --> 01:03:24,079
board anyway did you have any kind of

1752
01:03:28,950 --> 01:03:26,880
concluding kind of thoughts or remarks

1753
01:03:30,789 --> 01:03:28,960
on this

1754
01:03:33,829 --> 01:03:30,799
i would say that when it comes to mask

1755
01:03:35,990 --> 01:03:33,839
use you know there are

1756
01:03:37,349 --> 01:03:36,000
general principles that we can pull from

1757
01:03:39,109 --> 01:03:37,359
the literature

1758
01:03:41,029 --> 01:03:39,119
and we know from a laboratory setting

1759
01:03:43,190 --> 01:03:41,039
that face masks reduce the number of

1760
01:03:44,630 --> 01:03:43,200
infectious viral particles that escape

1761
01:03:47,029 --> 01:03:44,640
from the nose and mouth into the

1762
01:03:48,630 --> 01:03:47,039
environment that is perfectly logical we

1763
01:03:54,150 --> 01:03:48,640
can all

1764
01:03:55,990 --> 01:03:54,160
wearing a mask and they sneeze or cough

1765
01:04:00,230 --> 01:03:56,000
that they're not going to

1766
01:04:02,390 --> 01:04:00,240
expel as many snot

1767
01:04:03,829 --> 01:04:02,400
saliva etcetera particles from their

1768
01:04:04,710 --> 01:04:03,839
nose and mouth that could potentially be

1769
01:04:08,630 --> 01:04:04,720
carrying

1770
01:04:11,430 --> 01:04:08,640
viruses that logic holds right so

1771
01:04:12,309 --> 01:04:11,440
in a laboratory setting this is

1772
01:04:15,430 --> 01:04:12,319
demonstrable

1773
01:04:17,029 --> 01:04:15,440
with uh coronaviruses we can see that

1774
01:04:18,950 --> 01:04:17,039
when someone's not wearing a mask they

1775
01:04:22,470 --> 01:04:18,960
expel uh

1776
01:04:25,430 --> 01:04:22,480
plenty of uh viral particles

1777
01:04:26,789 --> 01:04:25,440
and uh included in droplets and aerosols

1778
01:04:30,390 --> 01:04:26,799
but when someone wears a mask

1779
01:04:32,710 --> 01:04:30,400
that number drops to almost zero

1780
01:04:33,670 --> 01:04:32,720
that's repeatable in several studies

1781
01:04:35,829 --> 01:04:33,680
where masks

1782
01:04:38,150 --> 01:04:35,839
block a really really high percentages

1783
01:04:40,710 --> 01:04:38,160
of viral particles from coming out of

1784
01:04:42,309 --> 01:04:40,720
someone's mouth and nose repeatable

1785
01:04:44,390 --> 01:04:42,319
repeatable repeatable

1786
01:04:45,990 --> 01:04:44,400
and then when we carry this over to okay

1787
01:04:47,589 --> 01:04:46,000
but dan i have to interject i know

1788
01:04:49,990 --> 01:04:47,599
you're making sure there's a remark but

1789
01:04:50,710 --> 01:04:50,000
i kind of nailed that i mean who cares

1790
01:04:52,870 --> 01:04:50,720
that doesn't

1791
01:04:55,270 --> 01:04:52,880
just we get and and the fact that it

1792
01:04:57,029 --> 01:04:55,280
gets repeated over and over again like

1793
01:05:00,069 --> 01:04:57,039
you just did with some kind of

1794
01:05:00,950 --> 01:05:00,079
mantra mesmerizing thing it's science

1795
01:05:03,029 --> 01:05:00,960
[\h__\h]

1796
01:05:04,470 --> 01:05:03,039
it doesn't have anything to do with

1797
01:05:07,670 --> 01:05:04,480
answering the question

1798
01:05:08,069 --> 01:05:07,680
am i safer wearing a mask it doesn't

1799
01:05:10,309 --> 01:05:08,079
answer

1800
01:05:12,710 --> 01:05:10,319
that because it doesn't relate to how

1801
01:05:15,990 --> 01:05:12,720
i'm using how it works with other humans

1802
01:05:17,270 --> 01:05:16,000
it's just it's science [\h__\h] well i

1803
01:05:18,870 --> 01:05:17,280
would disagree i think it's a really

1804
01:05:20,789 --> 01:05:18,880
important part of the puzzle

1805
01:05:22,069 --> 01:05:20,799
you know like we said at the beginning

1806
01:05:23,670 --> 01:05:22,079
it's important to see

1807
01:05:25,190 --> 01:05:23,680
whether or not something works in a lab

1808
01:05:25,910 --> 01:05:25,200
setting and that's usually the first

1809
01:05:27,670 --> 01:05:25,920
thing that

1810
01:05:30,309 --> 01:05:27,680
scientists do before going and testing

1811
01:05:31,430 --> 01:05:30,319
it further but no one had any doubt

1812
01:05:34,390 --> 01:05:31,440
whether it would work

1813
01:05:35,510 --> 01:05:34,400
it's home ice no one had any doubt that

1814
01:05:38,390 --> 01:05:35,520
if i put

1815
01:05:40,390 --> 01:05:38,400
if i do that it it does the same thing

1816
01:05:43,109 --> 01:05:40,400
if i cover my mouth when i cough

1817
01:05:44,230 --> 01:05:43,119
stuff doesn't come out to elevate it to

1818
01:05:47,109 --> 01:05:44,240
this level of

1819
01:05:49,270 --> 01:05:47,119
advanced refined science to say that if

1820
01:05:51,109 --> 01:05:49,280
you cover somebody's mouth

1821
01:05:52,630 --> 01:05:51,119
the stuff doesn't come out of it when

1822
01:05:55,910 --> 01:05:52,640
they sneeze is a

1823
01:05:58,950 --> 01:05:55,920
total head fake [\h__\h]

1824
01:06:00,710 --> 01:05:58,960
way of kind of wrapping all this

1825
01:06:03,349 --> 01:06:00,720
nonsense in science

1826
01:06:04,150 --> 01:06:03,359
the conclusion is it was inconclusive

1827
01:06:07,109 --> 01:06:04,160
the conclusion

1828
01:06:07,910 --> 01:06:07,119
is at last year's super bowl when the

1829
01:06:10,150 --> 01:06:07,920
chiefs won

1830
01:06:11,589 --> 01:06:10,160
no one had to wear a mask because no one

1831
01:06:13,190 --> 01:06:11,599
was told to wear a mask

1832
01:06:15,910 --> 01:06:13,200
because that's what the best science

1833
01:06:18,230 --> 01:06:15,920
said and there hasn't been a wave of

1834
01:06:19,589 --> 01:06:18,240
science that would change that i i

1835
01:06:22,710 --> 01:06:19,599
disagree um

1836
01:06:26,309 --> 01:06:22,720
so let's see

1837
01:06:27,829 --> 01:06:26,319
um yeah i mean

1838
01:06:29,510 --> 01:06:27,839
i think it's an important point to still

1839
01:06:31,349 --> 01:06:29,520
make that masks

1840
01:06:32,710 --> 01:06:31,359
actually physically stop viral particles

1841
01:06:34,390 --> 01:06:32,720
from coming out of your nose's mouth

1842
01:06:37,910 --> 01:06:34,400
because part of what we've seen

1843
01:06:39,349 --> 01:06:37,920
you know quote unquote experts say is

1844
01:06:42,150 --> 01:06:39,359
what i've encountered in making my

1845
01:06:44,549 --> 01:06:42,160
videos is this weird analogy that

1846
01:06:46,150 --> 01:06:44,559
wearing a mask is like trying to keep

1847
01:06:48,630 --> 01:06:46,160
mosquitoes out with a fence

1848
01:06:50,230 --> 01:06:48,640
and that's not the case and we can

1849
01:06:51,990 --> 01:06:50,240
demonstrate that in the lab so it's

1850
01:06:55,029 --> 01:06:52,000
important to

1851
01:06:56,950 --> 01:06:55,039
what i want to convey here is that this

1852
01:07:00,390 --> 01:06:56,960
these lab experiments are an important

1853
01:07:02,150 --> 01:07:00,400
step an important piece of the puzzle to

1854
01:07:03,510 --> 01:07:02,160
make a proof of concept a proof of

1855
01:07:05,910 --> 01:07:03,520
principle right

1856
01:07:07,990 --> 01:07:05,920
that viral particles can be blocked from

1857
01:07:09,990 --> 01:07:08,000
your nose and mouth if you put a mask

1858
01:07:11,349 --> 01:07:10,000
over your face therefore it's not really

1859
01:07:13,589 --> 01:07:11,359
much of a leap to say

1860
01:07:14,470 --> 01:07:13,599
okay if we have a community of people

1861
01:07:16,069 --> 01:07:14,480
who are blocking

1862
01:07:18,150 --> 01:07:16,079
bioparticles from coming out of their

1863
01:07:19,670 --> 01:07:18,160
nose and mouth we have a

1864
01:07:21,829 --> 01:07:19,680
you know grocery store full of people

1865
01:07:23,510 --> 01:07:21,839
who instead of sneezing

1866
01:07:25,190 --> 01:07:23,520
into the open air they're sneezing into

1867
01:07:26,789 --> 01:07:25,200
their masks they're talking into their

1868
01:07:29,109 --> 01:07:26,799
masks coughing into their mask

1869
01:07:30,390 --> 01:07:29,119
it's not a leap of logic to say that

1870
01:07:31,190 --> 01:07:30,400
there are going to be fewer viral

1871
01:07:33,029 --> 01:07:31,200
particles

1872
01:07:34,789 --> 01:07:33,039
out in the environment that the rest of

1873
01:07:37,829 --> 01:07:34,799
the community can encounter and thus

1874
01:07:38,789 --> 01:07:37,839
spread the virus so if we test that

1875
01:07:40,710 --> 01:07:38,799
assumption right

1876
01:07:42,390 --> 01:07:40,720
so science is all about continuing the

1877
01:07:44,789 --> 01:07:42,400
test if we test that

1878
01:07:45,990 --> 01:07:44,799
in a community setting with or a

1879
01:07:47,029 --> 01:07:46,000
clinical setting with health care

1880
01:07:49,349 --> 01:07:47,039
workers

1881
01:07:50,630 --> 01:07:49,359
we can consistently find statistically

1882
01:07:54,069 --> 01:07:50,640
significant

1883
01:07:54,630 --> 01:07:54,079
albeit incomplete evidence that face

1884
01:07:55,990 --> 01:07:54,640
masks

1885
01:07:57,990 --> 01:07:56,000
are effective that that principle

1886
01:08:02,150 --> 01:07:58,000
carries over to the community

1887
01:08:04,230 --> 01:08:02,160
and the clinic so we can see that

1888
01:08:06,549 --> 01:08:04,240
throughout the literature we can see

1889
01:08:07,990 --> 01:08:06,559
that throughout

1890
01:08:09,829 --> 01:08:08,000
you know trends that have happened

1891
01:08:10,630 --> 01:08:09,839
throughout the pandemic where

1892
01:08:12,710 --> 01:08:10,640
communities

1893
01:08:15,349 --> 01:08:12,720
or countries that implement mass

1894
01:08:18,309 --> 01:08:15,359
mandates early

1895
01:08:19,110 --> 01:08:18,319
they are associated with better outcomes

1896
01:08:20,789 --> 01:08:19,120
of course

1897
01:08:22,630 --> 01:08:20,799
this doesn't take into account what

1898
01:08:23,590 --> 01:08:22,640
other tech what other tactics the

1899
01:08:26,870 --> 01:08:23,600
countries

1900
01:08:29,990 --> 01:08:26,880
uh implemented but again that's hard to

1901
01:08:32,390 --> 01:08:30,000
study perfectly in a complicated chaotic

1902
01:08:33,829 --> 01:08:32,400
pandemic there's also evidence that

1903
01:08:36,149 --> 01:08:33,839
contradicts that there's

1904
01:08:38,470 --> 01:08:36,159
countries counties and states that

1905
01:08:41,349 --> 01:08:38,480
didn't have mass mandates or had

1906
01:08:43,430 --> 01:08:41,359
less restrictive mask mandates that do

1907
01:08:44,390 --> 01:08:43,440
not show a statistically significant

1908
01:08:48,149 --> 01:08:44,400
difference

1909
01:08:50,630 --> 01:08:48,159
in incidents of covid19 so

1910
01:08:52,070 --> 01:08:50,640
i'm really i was with you just letting

1911
01:08:54,950 --> 01:08:52,080
you kind of do your spiel there at the

1912
01:08:57,349 --> 01:08:54,960
end but this is kind of very deceptive

1913
01:08:58,470 --> 01:08:57,359
talk about cherry picking we just do not

1914
01:09:00,229 --> 01:08:58,480
have a handle

1915
01:09:02,149 --> 01:09:00,239
on what that would mean and maybe in a

1916
01:09:03,269 --> 01:09:02,159
year we will if the data really comes

1917
01:09:06,390 --> 01:09:03,279
out but

1918
01:09:08,789 --> 01:09:06,400
the indications are the indications

1919
01:09:09,910 --> 01:09:08,799
in terms of events too in terms of large

1920
01:09:12,149 --> 01:09:09,920
gatherings you know

1921
01:09:14,149 --> 01:09:12,159
when notre dame wins the big football

1922
01:09:17,430 --> 01:09:14,159
game against clemson and

1923
01:09:19,510 --> 01:09:17,440
30 000 non-mask-wearing kids uh

1924
01:09:21,110 --> 01:09:19,520
storm the field and there's no big

1925
01:09:23,030 --> 01:09:21,120
outbreak afterwards you know we have

1926
01:09:25,269 --> 01:09:23,040
these anecdotal accounts that

1927
01:09:26,470 --> 01:09:25,279
that kind of support a counter

1928
01:09:29,590 --> 01:09:26,480
conclusion so

1929
01:09:31,829 --> 01:09:29,600
i like where we're at before i just

1930
01:09:32,950 --> 01:09:31,839
don't like this if you give me back the

1931
01:09:35,990 --> 01:09:32,960
screen let's

1932
01:09:37,510 --> 01:09:36,000
wrap this up because you've really been

1933
01:09:40,309 --> 01:09:37,520
a tremendous guest

1934
01:09:41,829 --> 01:09:40,319
and i mean that i tell you folks i can't

1935
01:09:45,669 --> 01:09:41,839
tell you the number of times

1936
01:09:48,550 --> 01:09:45,679
i've tried to engage with super smart

1937
01:09:49,749 --> 01:09:48,560
well-qualified people that have a

1938
01:09:52,870 --> 01:09:49,759
different opinion

1939
01:09:55,910 --> 01:09:52,880
than i do on this and they just won't

1940
01:09:59,910 --> 01:09:55,920
engage and with

1941
01:10:03,189 --> 01:09:59,920
dr dan wilson who had full engagement

1942
01:10:04,790 --> 01:10:03,199
full addressing the issues we didn't

1943
01:10:07,430 --> 01:10:04,800
have to agree

1944
01:10:09,590 --> 01:10:07,440
and he didn't seek for seek agreement he

1945
01:10:13,030 --> 01:10:09,600
just kind of laid out his case

1946
01:10:15,270 --> 01:10:13,040
in a very strong compelling way and uh

1947
01:10:16,310 --> 01:10:15,280
i really really honor and respect that

1948
01:10:19,110 --> 01:10:16,320
so

1949
01:10:20,390 --> 01:10:19,120
dan tell folks what you're working on

1950
01:10:24,470 --> 01:10:20,400
because i know your interest

1951
01:10:25,910 --> 01:10:24,480
goes beyond just covet 19 even though

1952
01:10:28,149 --> 01:10:25,920
i could understand how you're sucked

1953
01:10:30,950 --> 01:10:28,159
into that vortex so

1954
01:10:31,750 --> 01:10:30,960
where where do you plan to go with this

1955
01:10:33,910 --> 01:10:31,760
science

1956
01:10:35,910 --> 01:10:33,920
uh education enlightenment kind of

1957
01:10:37,510 --> 01:10:35,920
project of yours

1958
01:10:39,030 --> 01:10:37,520
sure yeah and i just want to thank you

1959
01:10:42,070 --> 01:10:39,040
for having me on as a guest

1960
01:10:44,229 --> 01:10:42,080
uh first and foremost so i appreciate

1961
01:10:47,510 --> 01:10:44,239
the conversation and the willingness to

1962
01:10:48,950 --> 01:10:47,520
uh engage i think that's of course

1963
01:10:52,149 --> 01:10:48,960
really important

1964
01:10:55,990 --> 01:10:52,159
um what i'm working on now i mean well

1965
01:10:58,310 --> 01:10:56,000
um well i earned my phd last year and

1966
01:11:01,189 --> 01:10:58,320
have since started a new job and

1967
01:11:01,910 --> 01:11:01,199
my hobbies i'm continuing to just cover

1968
01:11:03,430 --> 01:11:01,920
what i

1969
01:11:06,229 --> 01:11:03,440
whatever i really feel like with my

1970
01:11:08,950 --> 01:11:06,239
youtube channel um

1971
01:11:10,709 --> 01:11:08,960
honestly the list is still dominated by

1972
01:11:13,510 --> 01:11:10,719
code related topics but

1973
01:11:16,390 --> 01:11:13,520
i'm interested in all sorts of things um

1974
01:11:21,590 --> 01:11:19,510
let's see i have uh

1975
01:11:23,510 --> 01:11:21,600
one of my videos on my channel i uh

1976
01:11:26,470 --> 01:11:23,520
talked about a book by bruce lipton

1977
01:11:27,189 --> 01:11:26,480
spontaneous spontaneous evolution so

1978
01:11:30,950 --> 01:11:27,199
that realm

1979
01:11:35,110 --> 01:11:30,960
of um in my opinion pseudoscience

1980
01:11:39,110 --> 01:11:36,790
things that have to do with uh

1981
01:11:41,830 --> 01:11:39,120
antibacters of course we mentioned

1982
01:11:43,510 --> 01:11:41,840
rfk junior at the beginning of this he's

1983
01:11:45,270 --> 01:11:43,520
on the horizon

1984
01:11:47,270 --> 01:11:45,280
i covered a lot of dell big tree back in

1985
01:11:51,110 --> 01:11:47,280
the early months of my channel

1986
01:11:54,630 --> 01:11:51,120
um and that'll probably come back

1987
01:11:57,990 --> 01:11:54,640
but i'm gonna stay in the realm of

1988
01:12:02,630 --> 01:11:58,000
um you know vaccine science

1989
01:12:04,950 --> 01:12:02,640
um evolution science uh

1990
01:12:07,110 --> 01:12:04,960
let's see cancer cures as part of the

1991
01:12:10,070 --> 01:12:07,120
recepton book i just showed

1992
01:12:10,790 --> 01:12:10,080
um all that content is stuff that

1993
01:12:13,189 --> 01:12:10,800
interests me

1994
01:12:13,990 --> 01:12:13,199
and what i'll probably be covering at

1995
01:12:15,350 --> 01:12:14,000
some point

1996
01:12:17,669 --> 01:12:15,360
in my channel i only make one video a

1997
01:12:19,669 --> 01:12:17,679
week so i can uncover so much

1998
01:12:21,430 --> 01:12:19,679
i hear you i've gotten sucked into doing

1999
01:12:24,229 --> 01:12:21,440
more i used to do one every two weeks

2000
01:12:25,990 --> 01:12:24,239
but anyways uh fantastic would love to

2001
01:12:29,189 --> 01:12:26,000
talk to you again at some point

2002
01:12:31,189 --> 01:12:29,199
sure the bruce lipton stuff is uh

2003
01:12:32,950 --> 01:12:31,199
primarily interesting to me from a

2004
01:12:35,910 --> 01:12:32,960
consciousness perspective

2005
01:12:37,350 --> 01:12:35,920
i believe that most biologists are

2006
01:12:41,590 --> 01:12:37,360
completely

2007
01:12:43,669 --> 01:12:41,600
misinformed about basic science like the

2008
01:12:45,510 --> 01:12:43,679
double slit experiment and its

2009
01:12:47,350 --> 01:12:45,520
implications for

2010
01:12:49,990 --> 01:12:47,360
consciousness and for the observer

2011
01:12:52,550 --> 01:12:50,000
effect which is fundamentally what bruce

2012
01:12:54,470 --> 01:12:52,560
lipton is kind of reaching for and i

2013
01:12:56,950 --> 01:12:54,480
particularly like point out the

2014
01:12:59,590 --> 01:12:56,960
six sigma result that was consistently

2015
01:13:02,630 --> 01:12:59,600
got by dean ray dr dean rayden

2016
01:13:04,390 --> 01:13:02,640
replicated in multiple laboratories uh

2017
01:13:06,070 --> 01:13:04,400
not only replicated in his laboratory

2018
01:13:09,110 --> 01:13:06,080
but laboratories around the world

2019
01:13:12,229 --> 01:13:09,120
it's a science that most people who

2020
01:13:13,430 --> 01:13:12,239
are uninformed about consciousness kind

2021
01:13:15,910 --> 01:13:13,440
of skate around

2022
01:13:17,590 --> 01:13:15,920
completely but if you get there if you

2023
01:13:18,870 --> 01:13:17,600
get to that point and if you want to

2024
01:13:20,390 --> 01:13:18,880
talk about it

2025
01:13:22,870 --> 01:13:20,400
i'd love to because you're really a

2026
01:13:25,910 --> 01:13:22,880
great guest and i really admire your

2027
01:13:27,750 --> 01:13:25,920
your intellectual chops your smart guy

2028
01:13:29,110 --> 01:13:27,760
and it's been great having you on thanks

2029
01:13:31,350 --> 01:13:29,120
again dan

2030
01:13:33,669 --> 01:13:31,360
hey thanks a lot alex appreciate it

2031
01:13:36,070 --> 01:13:33,679
thanks again to dr dan wilson for

2032
01:13:37,510 --> 01:13:36,080
joining me today on skeptico

2033
01:13:39,750 --> 01:13:37,520
i don't know if we're going to have much

2034
01:13:43,910 --> 01:13:39,760
discussion on this or not but

2035
01:13:46,709 --> 01:13:43,920
if we do i guess i'd like to focus on

2036
01:13:47,669 --> 01:13:46,719
why no one seems to care about the

2037
01:13:50,950 --> 01:13:47,679
science by

2038
01:13:51,669 --> 01:13:50,960
edict part of this i mean to me it's the

2039
01:13:54,790 --> 01:13:51,679
worst

2040
01:13:58,149 --> 01:13:54,800
possible outcome of where science could

2041
01:14:01,990 --> 01:13:59,830
see the bright side i know there's a

2042
01:14:03,830 --> 01:14:02,000
bright side in there someplace

2043
01:14:05,669 --> 01:14:03,840
let me know your thoughts skeptical

2044
01:14:07,590 --> 01:14:05,679
forum got some good shows coming up

2045
01:14:14,390 --> 01:14:07,600
stay with me for all of that until next